After a few posts of talking about transformations, fusions and characters we can start listing some powerlevels. This post is a work in progress, since at the moment of writing this post we still don't know how strong is Moro, Beerus, Ultra Instinct Sign, Mastered Ultra Instinct, Vegeta after learning proper spirit control.
3 things to note:
1. All numbers presented are already in milions to avoid listing all the zeroes. Outside of Master Roshi most fighters at this point have at least 1 milion ki.For characters below 1 milion I will add "ki" at the end of the number
2. This numbers will be presented just as characters appear in the manga.
3. Despite having some old multipliers I did for techniques I won't list all of them here. I will only post numbers for very important blasts that appear.
God of Destruction Beerus Saga
DBZ flashback:
Vegeta: 60
Kid Buu: 20,000
Goku: 58
Super Saiyan Goku: 2,900
Universal Spirit Bomb: 73,000+
SSj Goku All out Kamehameha: 6,342
---
Goku: 81
Goten: 7,7
Super Saiyan Goku: 4,050
Imaginary 75% Frieza: 90
Imaginary Perfect Cell: 1,800
Imaginary Kid Buu: 20,000
---
Beerus: 50,000 (very heavily suppressed)
Whis: 1500,000 (very heavily suppressed)
Nameless bug aliens: probably 200-2000 ki each
---
Mr. Satan: 35 ki
---
Kibitoshin: 3,530
---
King Kai: 10,000 ki
Goku: 81
Beerus: 50,000 (very heavily suppressed)
Whis: 1,500,000 (very heavily suppressed)
Super Saiyan Goku: 4,050
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 8,100
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 32,400
Beerus: 250,000 (powers up, still very heavily suppressed)
---
Champa: 45,000 (very heavily suppressed)
Vados: 1,750,000 (very heavily suppressed)
---
Beerus: 50,000 (very heavily suppressed)
Whis: 1,500,000 (very heavily suppressed)
Ultimate Gohan: 27,000
Piccolo: 2,174
Vegeta: 83
Good Buu: 10,000
Gotenks: 1540
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 30,800
Krillin: 8,2
Yamcha: 3,3
Master Roshi: 1657 ki
Tien: 16,9
Full Power Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 41,500
SSj2 Vegeta's Final Flash: 61,420
---
Super Saiyan God Goku: 324,000
Beerus: 250,000 (very heavily suppressed)
SSG Goku: 243,750 (losing power)
Beerus's Sphere of Destruction: 1,500,000
SSG Goku's Limitbreaker Kamehameha: 1,645,000
Kibito: 15
Supreme Kai: 1750
Frieza's soliders: 1000-2000
---
Universe 6 Saga
Saiyan Beyond God Goku: 33,200
Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta: 33,600
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 1,680,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 1,660,000
Whis: 15,000,000 (heavily suppressed)
Beerus: 5,000,000 (heavily suppressed)
Champa: 4,500,000 (heavily suppressed)
Vados: 17,500,000 (heavily suppressed)
---
Jaco: 4500 ki
---
Goku after training: 89
Vegeta after training: 89
Monaka the God of Fighters: 100,000,000 (heavily suppressed)
Piccolo: 2,370
Good Buu: 10,000
Auta Magetta: 7,500 (very hard to estimate due to his body)
Cabba: 85
Hit: 175,000 (suppressed)
Botamo: 50
Frost: 22,5 (1st form)
---
Goku: 44,5 (full after eating)
Botamo: 50
Goku: 89
Goku's kamehameha: 120
---
Goku: 89
Frost: 22,5 (1st form)
Frost: 90 (3rd form)
Super Saiyan Goku: 4,450
Frost: 3375 (final form, 75%)
----
Piccolo: 2,370
Frost: 3,150 (70%, tired)
Piccolo: 1,659 (70%, tired)
Frost: 2,250 (50%, very tired)
Vegeta: 89
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 4,450
Vegeta's Liver-breaker knee attack: 7,209
----
Vegeta: 89
Auta Magetta: 7,500
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 4,450
---
Vegeta: 89
Cabba: 85
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 4,450
Super Saiyan Cabba: 4,250
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 1,780,000
---
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 142,400 (8% due to burning out stamina)
Hit: 175,000 (suppressed)
---
Hit: 175,000 (suppressed)
Saiyan Beyond God Goku: 35,600
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku: 178,000
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku: 160,200 (90%, tired)
Super Saiyan God Goku: 320,000 (90%, tired)
Hit: 1,750,000 (full power, stressed)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 3,200,000 (initial, explosive power of this form, 90%)
SSB Goku's Max Kamehameha: 4,320,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 1,335,000 (post kamehameha, 75%)
---
Hit: 122,500 (70%, very tired)
Monaka the God of Fighters: 100,000,000 (heavily suppressed)
Monaka's Universal God Slayer Fist: 1,500,000,000
---
Future Trunks Saga
Future Trunks: 46,9 (70%, hurt and hungry)
Mai: 25 ki
---
Goku: 90
Vegeta: 90
---
Future Trunks: 53,6 (80%, hurt)
Goku Black: 8,000 (Saiyan Beyond God)
SSj 2 Trunks: 5,360 (can't go much above because of injuries)
---
Future Trunks: 71 (zenkai after senzu)
Goku: 90
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks: 9,230 (130% due to mastery)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 9,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 36,000
Full Power Super Saiyan 2 Trunks: 35,500
Super Saiyan God Goku: 360,000
---
Flashback
Future Trunks: 51
Future Supreme Kai: 1,750
Future Kibito: 15
Super Saiyan Trunks: 2,550
Future Dabura: 2,700
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks: 5,100
SSj 2 Trunks Burning Attack: 7,191
Goku Black: 3,900
---
Kibito: 22,5
Zamasu: 4,250
Supreme Kai: 1,750
Gowasu: 1,250
---
Grand Priest: 25,000,000 (suppressed)
---
Future Trunks: 75 (after training)
Vegeta: 90
Goku: 90
Goku Black: 8,400 (Saiyan Beyond God)
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 9,000
Super Saiyan Goku Black: 42,000
(Super Saiyan Beyond God, starts growing to 168,000 during the battle with Blue Vegeta)
Full Power Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 45,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 1,800,000 (starts to drop due to stamina issues)
---
Beerus: 50,000 (heavily suppressed)
Zamasu: 4,250
Beerus's Hakai: 100,000
---
SSB Vegeta's Final Flash: 2,397,600
Future Zamasu: 7,000
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 450,000 (after zenkai, power of SSG)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 1,260,000 (70% and droping fast)
SSB Vegeta after senzu: 1,800,000 (keeps droping fast)
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 450,000+ (after another zenkai, power surpassing SSG)
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 2,250,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 1,800,000
Future Zamasu: 7,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 4,500
---
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 2,250,000
Future Zamasu: 7,000
Full Power Super Saiyan 2 Trunks: 37,500
Supreme Kai: 1,750
Gowasu: 1,250
Goku Black: 45,000 (Saiyan Beyond God)
---
Goku after healing & mastering mafuba: 91,5
Vegeta after healing & training: 95
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 225,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 2,250,000
Super Saiyan God Vegeta: 380,000
Super Saiyan God-Blue Vegeta: 2,850,000
Future Zamasu: 7,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 1,830,000
SSB Goku's Mafuba: 3,660,000 (using the initial explosive power of SSB)
Super Saiyan God Goku: 366,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 1,912,500 (85%, battle fatigue)
Fused Zamasu: 3,839,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 1,830,000 (starts to drop rapidly due to fatigue)
SSB Goku All out Kamehameha: 4,002,000
Saiyan Beyond God Goku: 36,600
Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta: 38,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 1,830,000 (trying to adapt to stamina drain)
---
Fused Zamasu: 3,839,000
Saiyan Beyond God Vegito: 634,100 (85%, fatigue)
Vegito's All out Big Bang Flash: 1,475,000 (I guess Zamasu was having his guard down?)
Saiyan Beyond God Vegito: 746,000 (after senzu bean)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito: 37,300,000
SSB Vegito's Final Kamehameha (estimated): 110,579,000
---
Fused Zamasu: 3,839,000
Saiyan Beyond God Goku: 29,280 (80%, hurt)
Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta: 30,400 (80%, hurt)
Vegeta's All out Super Explosive Wave: 62,700
Saiyan Beyond God Goku: 37,000 (after healing)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 1,850,000
Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 3,700,000
Fused Zamasu's Holy Light Granade: 5,374,600
Fused Zamasu: 6,216,000 (Rage power up)
MSSB Goku's Hakai: 7,400,000
Full Power Super Saiyan 2 Trunks: 37,500
Fused Zamasus: 3,839,000 each
Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta: 24,700 (65%, very hurt)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 2,470,000 (initial, explosive power, 65%)
SSB Vegeta's All out Gamma Burst Flash: 6,042,000 (how is that possible is beyond me)
---
Universe Survival Saga
Goku: 93
Bandits: 10-15 ki
---
Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta: 38,600
Whis: 1500,000 (very heavily suppressed)
---
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 1,930,000
Beerus: 5,000,000 (suppressed)
Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 3,860,000
Beerus: 15,000,000 (serious)
---
Now when it comes to supreme kais of other universes, their angels and gods of destruction it's just a big guessing game. At this point I can't give any numbers that have a chance of being correct
Supreme kais of 12 universes: 1,000 - 4,000
Gods of destruction of 12 universes: 5,000,000 - 15,000,000
Beerus's Judgement: 21,000,000
Sidra's Energy Barrier: 20,000,000
Belmold's Imprisonment Ball: 10,000,000 each
Belmold's Energy Cards: 200,000,000-400,000,000 cutting power total, probably around 3,000,000 each card
Liquiir Nine-Tails form: 11,200,000
Liquiir's Tail Energy Cannon Barrage: 14,000,000 total
Heles's Arrow Shot: 16,000,000 piercing power
Rumsshi's Battle Roar: 15,400,000
Arak's Finger Beam: 10,200,000
Giin's Continuous Energy Bullet: 8,400,000 total
Beerus: 10,500,000 (70%, hurt)
Quitela: 10,850,000 (70%, hurt)
Grand Priest: 50,000,000 (probably still suppressed)
Belmod: 9,000,000 (90%. battle fatigue)
---
Goku: 93
Super Saiyan Goku: 4,650
Toppo: 80,000 (heavily suppressed)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 9,300
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 37,200
Super Saiyan God Goku: 372,000
Toppo: : 400,000 (suppressed)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 1,860,000
SSB Goku's Dragon Fist: 5,580,000
(technically it's just a punch with the power of condensed Mastered Super Saiyan Blue state but Dragon Fist does sound cooler)
Toppo: 4,000,000 (full power)
Toppo's Surprise Nutcracker: 6,000,000
---
work in progress
ToP:
Goku: 94 (3,760,000)
Vegeta: 96,5
Frieza: 34,000 (50%)
Golden Frieza: 1,700,000 (50%)
Cabba: 87,5 (4,375)
Caulifla: 105 (5,250 - 4,725)
Kale: 47,000 (2,350,000 - 5,640,000 and drops fast to )
Kefla SSj: 2,359,450 (50% power because of very weakened Kale)
Gohan: 37,8 - 37,800
Moro:
Goku: 95,5
Vegeta: 98
Tuesday, June 9, 2020
Saturday, June 6, 2020
Lets talk characters, main and secondary (in dragon ball Super)
I took a little break from dragon ball recently but since no one is reading these posts yet I can do that.
As of reading this post we reached a manga chapter where Goku lost his initial fight with Moro and Vegeta comes to the rescue. So please keep that in mind when reading the following text, maybe it will be updated later.
Goku and Vegeta
Since Vegeta is working hard to be at the very least equal to Goku I decided to include them both at the same time. It's usually easy to estimate their strength since they are the main characters, having the most fights, so I'll be brief here.
For now the only thing hard to estimate is how Vegeta's recent training developed his power. What we learned is that previously his spirit/ki control wasn't great and he got better, maybe even better than Goku.
I sincerely have no idea how will it change things, maybe Vegeta will just be stronger than Goku when it comes to numbers, or maybe he will be able to get more power from an existing transformation or find a new one. We will see.
One thing I wanna talk about when talking about Goku and Vegeta is that their base forms pretty much peaked, their increases in base powers are very low.
And I do believe that they peaked before reaching 100% Frieza from Namek Saga, since Beerus comments on doubting that Goku could defeat Frieza (my memory is wonky so I don't remember if it was in an anime or the movie though).
During the battle with Zamasu Trunks noted that senzu bean didn't make Vegeta stronger, and they also commented that Goku and Vegeta trained their bodies to the extreme levels, leaving little room for further improvements. They still get stronger though, just not by a huge, deciding margin really.
So please don't write angry comments that Base Goku should one-shot Kid Buu in Dragon Ball Super.
Gohan
Gohan is the main reason for writing this post.
Gohan sucks. Not only there's a long ass video made by Plague of Gripes who discusses Gohan's subject and how to fix that character but he's extremely inconsistent when it comes to power levels, especially in Super.
In DBZ he trains for about 5 years total and ignores training when he doesn't have to train. Even that comes back to bite him in the ass when Buu is resurrected he still doesn't train afterwards and gets weaker when Beerus shows up and forgets how to unleash his potential or even Super Saiyan 2 when Frieza returns (which happens in the movie, anime and in the movie manga so it's definitely more canon than not).
Which is fine but later we see him train for a very short time with Piccolo and suddenly he's able to take a weakened Super Saiyan Kefla, who is definitely at least as strong as early Super Saiyan Kale, one that could surprise a suppressed Golden Frieza with power and smack him around before Frieza was able to get super serious.
Gohan, who is probably weakened through not training to be around Super Buu power level is suddenly around the level of Golden Frieza from Ressurection F. Who was stronger than a regular Super Saiyan Blue Goku and probably still is stronger than a regular Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
Even if Piccolo said that Gohan during the tournament grew stronger than ever we're talking about out-of-ass *50 multiplier here.
And I'm going to give him just that on top of the Potential Unleashed multiplier (which is *10 over his Super Saiyan 2 multiplier).
We need a made up reason for that power up though so "thanks to training with Piccolo Gohan not only managed to unleash his potential again, but managed to master this state, stay in it for an extended period and unleash even more ki during battle, similar to a mastered Super Saiyan.
And trust me, it pains me how little it makes sense but we see it happen in a manga so in order to make sense of it we're giving him a *50 increase in power. A Toriyama handjob, as Plague called it.
Off topic but I actually like Gohan, even if he's pretty bland I always kinda liked his character. He seems like "I just wanna leave peacefully like a human but those aliens keeps trying to blow up my planet" kinda guy.
Lets talk a few of Gohan's powerlevels from DBZ:
Gohan: 1-710-1307 (during the battle with Radditz)
Gohan: 981 (suppressed during Saiyan attack)
Gohan's Masenko: 2800 ( since it's a technique I would say Gohan's base level is between 1305 and 2154)
afterwards Gohan definitely gets a zenkai boost after eating half a senzu and can somewhat fight heavily tired Vegeta (who's probably below 12,000 at this point).
Gohan during the battle with Vegeta is probably stronger than Krillin, since even after healing Krillin is quickly defeated. If we put Gohan at previously stated 2154 then after zenkai boost he should be around 2872.
After Vegeta is defeated Gohan gets another zenkai boost and after 1 month of image training with Krillin he's probably between 3800-5360. It doesn't actually matter much, his only feats then are defeating Frieza's soliders, kicking Dodoria hard and being smashed hard by Vegeta.
After having his potential unlocked by Guru Gohan is at 14,00 according to daizenshuu, even though most people argue he should be around Saiyan Saga Vegeta.
He gets his spine broken by Recoome putting little effort and gets another zenkai, after which he smacks around Ginyu Goku with the power of 23,000.
Gohan vs Guldo: 14,000
Gohan vs Recoome: 18,000 (why not, it really doesn't matter)
Gohan vs Ginyu Goku: 24,000
Then the fight with Frieza happen and Gohan's powerlevel skyrockets just like Vegeta's for bullshit reasons.
I didn't talk about Vegeta in that fight, dude jumps from being utterly defeated by Recoome to destroying Jeice to matching 1st form Frieza to being stronger than Piccolo within hours.
We're talking 30,000 powerlevel to way over 1,344,000 within hours. Vegeta was sad he wasn't a super saiyan- well, listen Vegeta, You actually went "false super saiyan" that day, this is clearly a *50 multiplier.
And Gohan actually isn't far from Vegeta on that day. It was stated somewhere that Gohan's power level at the start of battle with Frieza was at 200,000.
Then he got angry, which allowed him to smack around 2rd form Frieza for a little while (despite not doing major damage to him), then he got healed which put him probably back to when he was angry in terms of power and then he got angry again and tried to save Piccolo from 3rd form Frieza , surprising the tyrant but again- not doing major damage to him.
3rd form Frieza is probably around 2,000,000 and Gohan's ki output was probably higher than that, so lets try to give some numbers:
Gohan vs Frieza (start): 200,000
Gohan (angry): 800,000
Gohan (after healing): 800,000
Gohan (angry again): 1,600,000
After returning to Earth he's probably around 1,000,000 and he doesn't train until Frieza arrives again.
Then he spends 3 years with Goku and Piccolo but he just cannot keep up with a super saiyan and his namekian mentor.
It's unknown how strong Gohan gets since he doesn't fight the Androids, but it's nothing insane. Goku doesn't get significantly stronger in those 3 years (as a Super Saiyan he was at 150,000,000 during the battle against Frieza, probably around 200,000,000 when he landed on Earth and below 300,000,000 during the fight against Androids). I'll give Goku a 11% increase per year and give Gohan 5 times more, since Gohan is still growing up and has more potential than Goku (also he doesn't have a transformation to get used to)
Gohan (Android Saga): 3,724,000
But this hardly matters since the upcoming year in Room of Spirit and Time make Gohan the strongest fighter bar Perfect Cell in the whole Cell Saga.
This dramatic increase is thanks to mastering a Super Saiyan transformation, which allows to make Super Saiyan a second base form as it doesn't drain stamina and our heroes can even sleep in that form, making the training way more effective. Gohan also gets used to *10 gravity, which also helps to polish his powerlevel.
Gohan (Cell Saga): 31,200,000
and that power will be a peak for Gohan for a long time, since he doesn't train towards Buu Saga and gets significantly weaker. I'll give him a small boost after winning the hard battle with Cell but then a 5% decrease per year
Gohan (early Buu Saga): 23,240,000
He then notices that Goten is getting closer in power and learns that Goku comes back for a tournament, he trains for a short while
Gohan (tournament): 24,000,000
He loses/draws the battle against Dabura, who is probably around Super Perfect Cell level of power and gets healed a little with a senzu bean
Gohan (post Dabura): 24,800,000
Then he gets totally destroyed by Majin Buu and is healed back after sustaining critical injuries by Kibito.
Gohan (healed, pulling the Z-Sword): 26,450,000
Then he trains with the Z-Sword and gets much stronger fast, still it's below his peak.
Gohan (after Z-Sword training): 30,000,000
I didn't list Potential Unlocked as an official transformation but in order to make the numbers work (Ultimate Gohan being stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks) we'll give him a nice *10 multiplier on top of his Super Saiyan 2.
Ultimate Gohan: 30,000,000,000
That level will also allow Goku to surpass him in early Dragon Ball Super since Gohan doesn't train for 4 years.
Gohan (start of Super): 27,000,000
Gohan (vs Frieza): 25,650,000.
Now he can't even go Ultimate, but according to the movie & anime in his SSj he's stronger than Piccolo. I don't like this scene and it doesn't appear in the movie manga and in the manga so I'll treat it as not fully canon. If someone wants to treat it as canon then I'll say Piccolo was very tired after handling tens of Frieza's soliders before.
I calculated 1st form Frieza to be around 240,000,000 so him defeating guard-down base Gohan in 1 hit doesn't seem too stretched.
Then the major bullshit happens and suddenly Gohan in 2 days of training with Piccolo manages not only to get his ultimate form back, but also stay in it for an extended period and match tired Kefla in battle. Kefla, who I repeat, was most likely to be little stronger than Super Saiyan Kale, who surprised both Frieza and Goku with her power, meaning that she and Gohan were around Goku and Frieza's levels during the Ressurection F saga, so basically a year ago in universe.
Don't expect me to explain this shit more than I already did in the beginning of this post.
Ultimate Gohan (early tournament of power, suppressed): 30,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan (after growing in power during the tournament, suppressed): 37,800,000,000
Ultimate Gohan (full power): 1,890,000,000,000.
For now I will stop at this, it's too early to talk Gohan and Piccolo's battle against Moro.
Piccolo
Insert "look how they massacred my boy" picture here.
Piccolo was a badass, never staying far in terms of power compared to the saiyans and being a much smarter warrior than them, especially when he started to lag behind. A little out-of-Super history:
In Android Saga thanks to 3 years of training with Super Saiyan Goku he was stronger than an Android 20 (who was equal or stronger to Android 19) who stole some of his power beforehand.
He was around 2 times weaker than an Android 17 and got smacked by him hard.
Fusing with Kami made him stronger than 17, but 17 was still faster & didn't get tired. Piccolo could probably win with a Light Granade, an attack that shocked 17 when Piccolo used it against Cell.
And these are the last correct and visible estimations of Piccolo's power. So over 11 years before an action of Dragon Ball Super. This means that any Piccolo's power level visible after this point is just a big guessing game.
Piccolo got a lot more showtime in the DBS anime but I'll avoid the anime as much as I can.
Lets try to estimate Piccolo's power levels here, so if they are listed in the power level list they'll make as much sense as we can.
Lets say Piccolo's power level against 17 was 390,000,000, with 17 being at 370,000,000.
After that fight and getting destroyed by Imperfect Cell (who was around 500,000,000 at that point, being more or less equal to 16) Piccolo trained in the Room of Spirit and Time.
Goku was very impressed with Piccolo's power level, despite both of them stating it wouldn't do a thing to Perfect Cell. So I'm willing to give him the same multiplier that Vegeta got when he want to the chamber for the first time (2,16).
So Piccolo in Cell Games Saga is at: 842,400,000. He would most likely beat a Semi-Perfect Cell in battle and I don't think anyone would really strongly disagree with that, since Piccolo puts up a fight against Cell Jrs playing around.
Then 7 years pass and Buu Saga arrives. Piccolo is scared to fight Supreme Kai, but as many others I wouldn't say it's because of Shin's powerlevel, it's more about being afraid to hit a god of the universe. While we can only assume Shin is stronger, it's not by a huge margin. And I can see Piccolo winning the battle even with lower power level.
Also it's fair to assume Piccolo is weaker than Dabura, he wasn't fighting him but he got turned to stone fast so his reaction time might have been much lower than Dabura.
How does Piccolo compare to Goten and Trunks? He was a bit amazed by the kids Super Saiyan powers but I wouldn't say he would lose a battle to them 2v1. 18 didn't, so Piccolo wouldn't too.
Gotenks is a more difficult subject.
According to my own fusion multipliers Gotenks first appeariance is more or less around Cell Saga Super Saiyan Goku and Piccolo's pretty amazed by the power. But I'll say he's more impressed of the possiblity of putting a Super Saiyan on top of that.
But how strong did Piccolo get? We would have to guess a peace time multiplayer for him and sadly so far we didn't have any, we know he got incredibly more powerful between Frieza and Android Saga. Let's give him a similar multiplier Goku and Vegeta had, since as far as we know he peaked and can't improve on a similar magnitude as before. And while I don't like the idea that after 7 years Piccolo would be weaker than Perfect Cell, well, Cell was more than 2 times stronger than Piccolo in his Perfect form. I don't see Goku becoming 2 times stronger in that time and Piccolo wasn't shown to be training his ass off on Earth, unlike Vegeta.
Still, as a namekian and being very young for one I'm giving him a 9% increase per year. Slightly more than Goku, but he has no transformations to master.
Piccolo in Buu Saga: 1,540,000,000
While weaker than Perfect Cell in terms of power level I do think Piccolo would find a way to win with Perfect Cell with some tactics.
And since Piccolo doesn't really need to train better for Dragon Ball Super, in those 4 years lets keep the same multiplier.
Piccolo (early Dragon Ball Super): 2,174,000,000 . Still behind Teen Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 but stronger than Perfect Cell.
The only instance in which Piccolo is weaker is in the movie Resurrection F, when Shisami matches or is stronger than Piccolo.while being defeated by Super Saiyan Gohan's single punch.
I really don't like that scene at all. Piccolo weaker than a slacking Super Saiyan Gohan? Despite later giving a good fight to Frost, who was not a lot weaker than a Super Saiyan Goku? Movie manga didn't have that sequence at all, and regular manga skipped that moment. Therefore if we try to treat movies as much canon as we can I'll say Piccolo was pretty tired at that point, spending a lot of power to defeat Frieza's soliders. Gohan thanks to transformation available was just able to conserve energy much better than Piccolo.
For now I'll leave Piccolo at that level, I will have to estimate his power against Frost, who is stronger than Piccolo and weaker than Super Saiyan Goku and later's Piccolo power after he did a quick training with Gohan and was said to improve immensely.
Master Roshi
I'll add Roshi here, because he's one of the most fun characters in the series. DBS retconned him a bit, saying that he trained in secret for all these years and I'm all for it. He also has his own version of Ultra Instinct (in the manga) that allows him to fight Jiren and defeat Kahseral despite being said to have a powerlevel "low as dirt".
He has 3 "modes"
- base, where his last noted powerlevel was 139 when not fighting in early Saiyan Saga. He's very thin in that mode
- serious mode, with well developed muscles. He used that mode to fight Goku and Tien during tournament fights. During his fight with Goku his power was around 120 ki, when fighting Tien he was definitely over 139 (and over Yamcha). It's hard to say how strong he was compared to Krillin but he's far weaker than Tien, who didn't need to get serious to win with Roshi. For now we can estimate that he was between 139 and 170.
- Full Power Mode, in this form he's at his strongest but he might actually be slower than in his serious mode because of all the muscle mass. He used that form to blow up the moon and to fight Frieza soliders, so we can assume he needed more power than speed for a better crowd control when fighting Frieza army. It's unknown how many times stronger he is in that mode, probably at least 2 times.
In Ressurection F movie & manga he was kicking ass of Frieza soliders but he was seen to be damaged way more than other characters.
Regular Frieza solider has a powerlevel between 1000 and 2000 and Roshi is probably at least 2,5 times stronger since he can defeat many soliders at once,
It's been 26 years since we learned Roshi's last powerlevel of 139 .
We can assume that he peaked many years ago but that he knows how to train more effectively than Goku, so let's give him a 10% multiplier every year since then so after 26 years he's at 1657 in his base form. And that's fair, with his Full Power Mode being at least 2 times stronger Roshi can definitely smack around several Frieza's soliders
As for the rest of humans I need to talk about something first.
I'm a huge fan of Tien, Krillin and Yamcha. I'm not a fan of leaving them so far behind the main cast that they are pretty much useless, especially Tien who was a major threat to Goku and Roshi before, never stopped training and doesn't have a goal in life aside of mastering martial arts.
In my opinion it's Tien, not Roshi, who should be the closest to achieving Ultra Instinct as Roshi pretty much retired after fighting Tien in the original Dragon Ball.
So how strong should be human characters after Frieza saga. Is their power in thousands or milions? The answer is- it doesn't really matter that much. So why not make them as strong as we can?
Another question is- do you have a problem if at some point (early Android saga) humans were stronger in base form than Goku? Goku still has kaioken and super saiyan while Tien, Krillin and Yamcha have nothing. Toriyama didn't even bother giving them kaioken.
So I'm a huge fan of humans, I'm not a fan of extreme gaps in power levels and I don't see anything wrong with having humans stronger than base Goku at some point, now lets go to
Tien
Last recorded powerlevel of Tien is in Saiyan Saga when he was at 1830 and got dominated by Nappa. Even 100% Tri Beam wasn't enough to really damage Nappa.
After that Tien trained with King Kai for about 267 days (while Goku spent there 158 days in Saiyan Saga), got destroyed by 17 and his only other feat, albeit a massive one, was using his new Neo Tri Beam technique to keep Semi-perfect Cell in place, giving 18 and 16 time to escape, which almost cost Tien his life.
But there's one important thing to note- 16 with a punch wasn't even able to phase Cell, while Tien's technique could blow Cell away and do some minor damage to him. DB Wiki article about Neo Tri Beam says it's power is 100 times bigger than the user.
I like to think that Tien uses the principle of Kaioken to power up original Tri Beam. Instead of rising every ki point in his body like with kaioken Tien focuses the power in his hands, rising it even more.
If we assume *100 as a multiplier for Neo Tri Beam it's easy to estimate that the power of Tien is higher than 1% of 16. Android 16 estimations usually are around 500,000,000 so Tien should be at least at 6,500,000 to make an impact with Neo Tri Beam.
Super Saiyan Goku was said to be weaker than Super Saiyan Vegeta back in Android Saga, and Vegeta was far from 18's max power, he got crushed fast when 18 stopped playing around. Therefore I estimate 18 being at 350,000,000 and Vegeta being near 300,000,000 in his Super Saiyan state. That would put base Tien above base Goku in Android Saga.
But how did Tien get there?
Goku on King Kai's planet got ~19 times stronger in 158 days. Tien spent more time there (267/158 = * 1,69), didn't "waste" time on learning kaioken and spirit bomb (*1,25), he had a company outside of King Kai to train with (*1,2) and he said in his mind that he needs to train harder than Goku because he doesn't want to always be behind (*1,15).
Therefore I estimate that after training with King Kai Tien was at 102,594. And that would support the anime filler when he fights Jeice and Burter at the same time and wins.
Then he trains lightly for 11 months before Frieza arrives. Tien still didn't peak at this point and knows that Goku is still much stronger so 10% increase seems fair. He's at 112,853 when Frieza arrives. Then he learns that Goku and Frieza are leagues ahead and outside his reach + that in 3 years androids kill everyone. That's as good motivation to train as when saiyans were coming to Earth, so the multiplier for his upcoming training will reflect that.
In a year he got 7,32 times stronger, but back then he still had to master ki control, so his gains back then were more significant. Still Piccolo in that time improved with a pace of *5,25 in a year (going from around 1,344,000 to over 150,000,000 in 3 years) and I don't see why Tien wouldn't be able to pull 75% of that- he saw how strong a super saiyan is so he had a clear vision of his goal strength.
With 3,9375 increase/year Tien would reach 6,889,000 in 3 years + he developed Neo Tri Beam that multiplies his power by *100 (at least the first attack, I can see next blasts getting much weaker). That allowed to keep Semi-Perfect Cell in place while doing him some minor damage.
How about later Tien feats?
There were only a few- Tien redirected Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed) attack with his Neo Tri Beam and then got ko'ed with one kick.
In Dragon Ball Super Tien is even more useless, not being able to put any fight against Beerus, he helps defeat Frieza's soliders, during Tournament of Power isn't able to damage Frost (well, at least Frost is much stronger than he was during the previous tournament) and gets quickly knocked out by him. In the galactic prisoner saga he's not able to help Yamcha fight Zauyogi which was extremely disappointing- it means Yamcha is not far behind Tien in terms of power and that's just insulting to Tien.
So it's fair to say that Tien peaked in Android Saga (meaning Toriyama stopped caring about him completely) and that his later increases in power weren't as spectacular. With *1,085 increase per year he would be at 12,195,000 in Buu Saga and 16,900,000 at the start of Super.
And while I would love to give Tien 30,000,000 I don't think I can, Frost not being damaged by Neo Tri Beam really puts a hard cap on Tien's power.
Krillin
The strongest human. Not really, Krillin while being an awesome and fun character stops training far too many times to be stronger than Tien. Toriyama shits on Tien so much already that I simply won't allow Krillin to be stronger.
Krillin's last recorded powerlevel that didn't use bullshit power-ups was 1770 in Saiyan Saga and it's a really important number. It's only slightly weaker than Tien's power at the time while Krillin was much weaker than Tien before that. Back in Dragon Ball Krillin was also catching up to Tien's level fast, despite being much weaker when Tien was introduced.
This suggests that Krillin trains more effectively than Tien.
Krillin has a "neo tri beam" of his own, the destructo disc. How strong it is? Well, it cut off Frieza's tail but Frieza might have had his guard down. Since Goku can be killed with a laser ring when having a guard down while Super Saiyan Blue it really doesn't say much about Destructo Disc power. But 1st form Frieza most likely had his guard down when Nail chopped his neck so Destructo Disc is definitely over 10 times stronger than that. My estimation would be between *20 and *40 so I should give it *30 multiplier and call it a day.
Krillin will be harder to estimate the power level, since it's not stated that he ever trained with King Kai and he had his potential unleashed which made him grow rapidly in power during the battle with Frieza. Worst part is that no one knows when it stopped and at what powerlevel.
When fighting Guldo his power is stated to be at 13,000 while later he has no problem fighting Ginyu Goku, meaning his power is around 23,000.
The last semi-official power level stated for Krillin is 75,000 when fighting Frieza, but it's unknown if it's at the start or the end of the battle.
It might be important to note that between 13,000 and 23,000 not much time has passed + Krillin was healed with a senzu bean. While before that Krillin's potential was unlocked, Krillin's power grew to a certain point (Vegeta mistook Krillin's energy signature for Zarbon at first) and then apparently stopped at 13,000.
This could mean that Krillin got a zenkai-like ability for a short while, powering him up immensely after being healed after a hard fight.
But let's go step by step:
Krillin during Saiyan attack: 1770. Maybe 1814 when he's healed with half a senzu.
Krillin on Namek: ~2500 (over one month of image training with Gohan)
Krillin post power up, early: 13,000 (steadily grows)
Krillin after senzu bean: around 23,000
Krillin start Frieza: 75,000
Krillin at the moment of death (stops growing): 132,750
I used the same increase he had during the fight with Recoome.
Around 15 months pass between Krillin's ressurection and Frieza's arrival so let's give Krillin a 12,5% increase since then.
Krillin when Frieza returns: 149,300
Now the training to Android saga is very hard to calculate, because Krillin has even less feats visible than Tien, even if we use anime filler we don't have much to work with- in the filler he's able to at least survive Gero's few attacks (well, it's more than what Yamcha achieved) and headbutted Imperfect Cell. He didn't fight 17 and 18 and later bravely attacked Semi-Perfect and Perfect Cell despite not dealing any damage.
But we start with Krillin being stronger than Tien and a hint that he might actually train better than Tien. We also want to throw a bone to people who say that Krillin is the strongest human (that includes Toriyama apparently and we want to thank him for the series too).
Krillin also fought Frieza and knows best of all humans how strong Frieza is, so his goal in training is very clear.
I'll give him a yearly increase of 4,59375 which is between Piccolo's and Tien's increases in that time. It's also a close number to 4,6218, which is a a Tien's multiplier higher by 17% , a difference in power gain Krillin and Tien had back in Saiyan Saga.
So Krillin at he start of Android is at 14,473,000. The only thing that might contradict this powerlevel is that Base Vegeta opened Gero's lab door despite being now apparently weaker in base form than Krillin. But ki attacks are always seen to be much stronger than regular punches + it probably hurts as hell to punch a wall with 100% of your strength without breaking a bone while using a ki blast is much safer.
But despite being that strong Krillin peaked. He stopped training after Cell Saga and I don't see him even trying to keep the powerlevel he had. I'm giving him a 5% decrease/year.
Krillin in Buu Saga: 10,107,000. I'm not giving him a power increase for 10 days of training towards the tournament, not after 7 years. 10 days would be enough to dust off his abilities and bring back some battle instincts, nothing more.
Krillin also doesn't train in 4 years to Dragon Ball Super, so with further 5% decrease he's at
Krillin (early Dragon Ball Super): 8,232,000
But then finally in the galactic prisoner saga Krillin trains for 2 months and with 18 as a training partner I see him going back to his peak. We'll use the same increase as before (but divided by 6 since it's not a full year) and Krillin during his rematch with Yunba is at 13,162,000.
And yes, I didn't mention Tien's increase in that 2 months time but he isn't as motivated as Krillin, he doesn't have 18 as a training partner and his gains were always lower so that number isn't as significant as Krillin's increase.
Yamcha
Everyone loves Yamcha. He isn't really a top martial artist but he never really was, and Krillin was always stronger than him, even when Krillin stopped training and it was stated that Yamcha actually never stopped training, keeping in shape just in case of emergency. In the Galactic Patrol saga he's seen kicking ass of space convicts, 3 at the same time and they were definitely above Frieza's soliders in terms of power.
Last recorded powerlevel of Yamcha was 1480 during the Saiyan Attack, and he was killed by a selfdestructing Saibaman (power of that attack was likely to be around 3600).
Since then he trained with King Kai for 136 days but requesting a harder training than Goku had. Using a similar multipliers Tien had (but with shorter training time) Yamcha should be at 43,315.
That might be a tad too close to Recoome, who he defeats without much problem in the anime filler, but Yamcha still has techniques of his own:
His Wolf Fang Fist and it's evolved forms strike the opponent with greater speed & power than the user's powerlevel would suggest. Since it didn't do much against Kami I would say it's *1,5 increase, which would later be boosted to probably around *2,475 because of Yamcha's complete training with Kami and using ki control to boost the power of his moves when needed.
His Spirit Ball was able to hit Kami HARD, despite Kami being probably 2 times faster and stronger when they fought. Kami praised the technique afterwards. Even before Yamcha learned proper ki control I would say the technique multiplier is *2, which was boosted to probably around * 3,3 later.
Back to his powerlevel, we'll leave 43,315 for now and say that just like Krillin he trained lightly before Frieza comes to Earth, giving him a powerlevel of 48,729.
He freaked out when he sensed Frieza's suppressed power of probably 30-60 milion and that definitely put a goal in his mind for the upcoming 3 years of training.
As for the training I don't think Yamcha is the same league as Tien and Krillin. Despite having bigger gains than Tien in Saiyan Saga he was very weak compared to Tien before they trained together (177 compared to 250) , so he was weaker than Tien was back when Tien was introduced for the first time, and that's 7 years before that. In 7 years Yamcha wasn't able to match Tien's first appeariance in the series, while Tien in that time got stronger than young King Piccolo.
So I'm giving Yamcha 65% of Piccolo's increase in that time (*3,4125/year) compared to Tien's 75%.
Yamcha (Android Saga): 1,936,000. And that seems fair, at first Android 19 and 20 confuse his power level with Goku's so it's definitely not 10,000 as some of the powerlevel lists online suggest..
Yamcha stops being a fighter after Android Saga, but as mentioned before it's stated that he still trains. Since he doesn't train towards a certain goal I'm giving him a 5% increase per year.
Yamcha (Buu Saga): 2,724,000.
Yamcha has no feats in fighting in Buu Saga (not counting anime filler). I'm keeping the same 5% increase when going to DBS
Yamcha (Dragon Ball Super): 3,311,000.
At that level he definitely wouldn't have a hard time defeating some Moro magic boosted convicts (who are probably between 20,000 - 200,000 when it comes to powerlevels)
Chiaotzu
I don't think another fighter gets as little screen time as the little pale fella.
When it comes to manga canon fights Chiaotzu peaks at selfdestructing against Nappa, not being strong enough to blow up his armor. Before that he was nearly killed by Mercenary Tao and defeated by Krillin during his own introduction.
His last and probably only powerlevel stated was 610 during the Saiyan attack and many people strongly suggest Yajirobe was stronger at that point, weekly shonen jump saying he was at 970.
But we can work with that, we've got Yamcha so we can get little fella as well.
After dying he went to train with King Kai for as long as Tien trained. We'll give him an identical increase Tien had, so basically he's still 3 times weaker than Tien:
Chiaotzu (after King Kai): 34,200. In the anime filler he defeats Guldo with no problem and that level would fit.
Chiaotzu (Frieza arrives): 37,617
Now 3 years pass towards the Android Saga. Chiaotzu was never in the same league as Yamcha and Tien commented during early Android Saga that Chiaotzu was too weak to bring him, so even when I'm generous and giving Chiaotzu 50% of what Piccolo had in terms of power increase it still seems a lot.
Chiaotzu (Android Saga): 680,412
So Tien sensing that his friend is 100 times weaker than suppressed Frieza would make him not wanna risk Chiaotzu's life during Android attack. Still, Chiaotzu never stopped helping Tien get stronger so he trained with him. I don't think his multiplier should be Tien's 1,085 but it should be higher than Yamcha's 1,05. 1,0675 is in the middle.
Chiaotzu (Buu Saga): 1,075,000
Chiaotzu (Dragon Ball Super): 1,396,000.
Why not?
EDIT:
Android 18
18 just like Chiaotzu is very hard to estimate, since we never see her training, even in anime I think she's only training with Krillin for the Tournament of Power and there was a very little time to improve.
We have no good numbers or estimations for the opponents she defeats during the Tournament which also doesn't help.
We only know that she cannot get weaker and I see her getting a little stronger in 7 years.
18 (Buu Saga): 375,000,000
With similar slight increases towards Dragon Ball Super.
18 (early Super): 390,000,000
I will continue listing her levels in later DBS after I figure out how many days she can train. She will definitely improve by a huge margin before her battle with Moro (but probably below Piccolo)
Android 17
17 got retconned in DBS and it was said that the dude is training, being able to overpower and scare Super Saiyan 3 Goku before Tournament of Power. In order to be in a similar magnitude of power I'm giving him a 45% increase in power/year
17 (Buu Saga): 4,986,000,000
17 (Tournament of Power): 46,300,000,000
As with 18 I will list his powerlevel during the Moro fight later.
As of reading this post we reached a manga chapter where Goku lost his initial fight with Moro and Vegeta comes to the rescue. So please keep that in mind when reading the following text, maybe it will be updated later.
Goku and Vegeta
Since Vegeta is working hard to be at the very least equal to Goku I decided to include them both at the same time. It's usually easy to estimate their strength since they are the main characters, having the most fights, so I'll be brief here.
For now the only thing hard to estimate is how Vegeta's recent training developed his power. What we learned is that previously his spirit/ki control wasn't great and he got better, maybe even better than Goku.
I sincerely have no idea how will it change things, maybe Vegeta will just be stronger than Goku when it comes to numbers, or maybe he will be able to get more power from an existing transformation or find a new one. We will see.
One thing I wanna talk about when talking about Goku and Vegeta is that their base forms pretty much peaked, their increases in base powers are very low.
And I do believe that they peaked before reaching 100% Frieza from Namek Saga, since Beerus comments on doubting that Goku could defeat Frieza (my memory is wonky so I don't remember if it was in an anime or the movie though).
During the battle with Zamasu Trunks noted that senzu bean didn't make Vegeta stronger, and they also commented that Goku and Vegeta trained their bodies to the extreme levels, leaving little room for further improvements. They still get stronger though, just not by a huge, deciding margin really.
So please don't write angry comments that Base Goku should one-shot Kid Buu in Dragon Ball Super.
Gohan
Gohan is the main reason for writing this post.
Gohan sucks. Not only there's a long ass video made by Plague of Gripes who discusses Gohan's subject and how to fix that character but he's extremely inconsistent when it comes to power levels, especially in Super.
In DBZ he trains for about 5 years total and ignores training when he doesn't have to train. Even that comes back to bite him in the ass when Buu is resurrected he still doesn't train afterwards and gets weaker when Beerus shows up and forgets how to unleash his potential or even Super Saiyan 2 when Frieza returns (which happens in the movie, anime and in the movie manga so it's definitely more canon than not).
Which is fine but later we see him train for a very short time with Piccolo and suddenly he's able to take a weakened Super Saiyan Kefla, who is definitely at least as strong as early Super Saiyan Kale, one that could surprise a suppressed Golden Frieza with power and smack him around before Frieza was able to get super serious.
Gohan, who is probably weakened through not training to be around Super Buu power level is suddenly around the level of Golden Frieza from Ressurection F. Who was stronger than a regular Super Saiyan Blue Goku and probably still is stronger than a regular Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
Even if Piccolo said that Gohan during the tournament grew stronger than ever we're talking about out-of-ass *50 multiplier here.
And I'm going to give him just that on top of the Potential Unleashed multiplier (which is *10 over his Super Saiyan 2 multiplier).
We need a made up reason for that power up though so "thanks to training with Piccolo Gohan not only managed to unleash his potential again, but managed to master this state, stay in it for an extended period and unleash even more ki during battle, similar to a mastered Super Saiyan.
And trust me, it pains me how little it makes sense but we see it happen in a manga so in order to make sense of it we're giving him a *50 increase in power. A Toriyama handjob, as Plague called it.
Off topic but I actually like Gohan, even if he's pretty bland I always kinda liked his character. He seems like "I just wanna leave peacefully like a human but those aliens keeps trying to blow up my planet" kinda guy.
Lets talk a few of Gohan's powerlevels from DBZ:
Gohan: 1-710-1307 (during the battle with Radditz)
Gohan: 981 (suppressed during Saiyan attack)
Gohan's Masenko: 2800 ( since it's a technique I would say Gohan's base level is between 1305 and 2154)
afterwards Gohan definitely gets a zenkai boost after eating half a senzu and can somewhat fight heavily tired Vegeta (who's probably below 12,000 at this point).
Gohan during the battle with Vegeta is probably stronger than Krillin, since even after healing Krillin is quickly defeated. If we put Gohan at previously stated 2154 then after zenkai boost he should be around 2872.
After Vegeta is defeated Gohan gets another zenkai boost and after 1 month of image training with Krillin he's probably between 3800-5360. It doesn't actually matter much, his only feats then are defeating Frieza's soliders, kicking Dodoria hard and being smashed hard by Vegeta.
After having his potential unlocked by Guru Gohan is at 14,00 according to daizenshuu, even though most people argue he should be around Saiyan Saga Vegeta.
He gets his spine broken by Recoome putting little effort and gets another zenkai, after which he smacks around Ginyu Goku with the power of 23,000.
Gohan vs Guldo: 14,000
Gohan vs Recoome: 18,000 (why not, it really doesn't matter)
Gohan vs Ginyu Goku: 24,000
Then the fight with Frieza happen and Gohan's powerlevel skyrockets just like Vegeta's for bullshit reasons.
I didn't talk about Vegeta in that fight, dude jumps from being utterly defeated by Recoome to destroying Jeice to matching 1st form Frieza to being stronger than Piccolo within hours.
We're talking 30,000 powerlevel to way over 1,344,000 within hours. Vegeta was sad he wasn't a super saiyan- well, listen Vegeta, You actually went "false super saiyan" that day, this is clearly a *50 multiplier.
And Gohan actually isn't far from Vegeta on that day. It was stated somewhere that Gohan's power level at the start of battle with Frieza was at 200,000.
Then he got angry, which allowed him to smack around 2rd form Frieza for a little while (despite not doing major damage to him), then he got healed which put him probably back to when he was angry in terms of power and then he got angry again and tried to save Piccolo from 3rd form Frieza , surprising the tyrant but again- not doing major damage to him.
3rd form Frieza is probably around 2,000,000 and Gohan's ki output was probably higher than that, so lets try to give some numbers:
Gohan vs Frieza (start): 200,000
Gohan (angry): 800,000
Gohan (after healing): 800,000
Gohan (angry again): 1,600,000
After returning to Earth he's probably around 1,000,000 and he doesn't train until Frieza arrives again.
Then he spends 3 years with Goku and Piccolo but he just cannot keep up with a super saiyan and his namekian mentor.
It's unknown how strong Gohan gets since he doesn't fight the Androids, but it's nothing insane. Goku doesn't get significantly stronger in those 3 years (as a Super Saiyan he was at 150,000,000 during the battle against Frieza, probably around 200,000,000 when he landed on Earth and below 300,000,000 during the fight against Androids). I'll give Goku a 11% increase per year and give Gohan 5 times more, since Gohan is still growing up and has more potential than Goku (also he doesn't have a transformation to get used to)
Gohan (Android Saga): 3,724,000
But this hardly matters since the upcoming year in Room of Spirit and Time make Gohan the strongest fighter bar Perfect Cell in the whole Cell Saga.
This dramatic increase is thanks to mastering a Super Saiyan transformation, which allows to make Super Saiyan a second base form as it doesn't drain stamina and our heroes can even sleep in that form, making the training way more effective. Gohan also gets used to *10 gravity, which also helps to polish his powerlevel.
Gohan (Cell Saga): 31,200,000
and that power will be a peak for Gohan for a long time, since he doesn't train towards Buu Saga and gets significantly weaker. I'll give him a small boost after winning the hard battle with Cell but then a 5% decrease per year
Gohan (early Buu Saga): 23,240,000
He then notices that Goten is getting closer in power and learns that Goku comes back for a tournament, he trains for a short while
Gohan (tournament): 24,000,000
He loses/draws the battle against Dabura, who is probably around Super Perfect Cell level of power and gets healed a little with a senzu bean
Gohan (post Dabura): 24,800,000
Then he gets totally destroyed by Majin Buu and is healed back after sustaining critical injuries by Kibito.
Gohan (healed, pulling the Z-Sword): 26,450,000
Then he trains with the Z-Sword and gets much stronger fast, still it's below his peak.
Gohan (after Z-Sword training): 30,000,000
I didn't list Potential Unlocked as an official transformation but in order to make the numbers work (Ultimate Gohan being stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks) we'll give him a nice *10 multiplier on top of his Super Saiyan 2.
Ultimate Gohan: 30,000,000,000
That level will also allow Goku to surpass him in early Dragon Ball Super since Gohan doesn't train for 4 years.
Gohan (start of Super): 27,000,000
Gohan (vs Frieza): 25,650,000.
Now he can't even go Ultimate, but according to the movie & anime in his SSj he's stronger than Piccolo. I don't like this scene and it doesn't appear in the movie manga and in the manga so I'll treat it as not fully canon. If someone wants to treat it as canon then I'll say Piccolo was very tired after handling tens of Frieza's soliders before.
I calculated 1st form Frieza to be around 240,000,000 so him defeating guard-down base Gohan in 1 hit doesn't seem too stretched.
Then the major bullshit happens and suddenly Gohan in 2 days of training with Piccolo manages not only to get his ultimate form back, but also stay in it for an extended period and match tired Kefla in battle. Kefla, who I repeat, was most likely to be little stronger than Super Saiyan Kale, who surprised both Frieza and Goku with her power, meaning that she and Gohan were around Goku and Frieza's levels during the Ressurection F saga, so basically a year ago in universe.
Don't expect me to explain this shit more than I already did in the beginning of this post.
Ultimate Gohan (early tournament of power, suppressed): 30,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan (after growing in power during the tournament, suppressed): 37,800,000,000
Ultimate Gohan (full power): 1,890,000,000,000.
For now I will stop at this, it's too early to talk Gohan and Piccolo's battle against Moro.
Piccolo
Insert "look how they massacred my boy" picture here.
Piccolo was a badass, never staying far in terms of power compared to the saiyans and being a much smarter warrior than them, especially when he started to lag behind. A little out-of-Super history:
In Android Saga thanks to 3 years of training with Super Saiyan Goku he was stronger than an Android 20 (who was equal or stronger to Android 19) who stole some of his power beforehand.
He was around 2 times weaker than an Android 17 and got smacked by him hard.
Fusing with Kami made him stronger than 17, but 17 was still faster & didn't get tired. Piccolo could probably win with a Light Granade, an attack that shocked 17 when Piccolo used it against Cell.
And these are the last correct and visible estimations of Piccolo's power. So over 11 years before an action of Dragon Ball Super. This means that any Piccolo's power level visible after this point is just a big guessing game.
Piccolo got a lot more showtime in the DBS anime but I'll avoid the anime as much as I can.
Lets try to estimate Piccolo's power levels here, so if they are listed in the power level list they'll make as much sense as we can.
Lets say Piccolo's power level against 17 was 390,000,000, with 17 being at 370,000,000.
After that fight and getting destroyed by Imperfect Cell (who was around 500,000,000 at that point, being more or less equal to 16) Piccolo trained in the Room of Spirit and Time.
Goku was very impressed with Piccolo's power level, despite both of them stating it wouldn't do a thing to Perfect Cell. So I'm willing to give him the same multiplier that Vegeta got when he want to the chamber for the first time (2,16).
So Piccolo in Cell Games Saga is at: 842,400,000. He would most likely beat a Semi-Perfect Cell in battle and I don't think anyone would really strongly disagree with that, since Piccolo puts up a fight against Cell Jrs playing around.
Then 7 years pass and Buu Saga arrives. Piccolo is scared to fight Supreme Kai, but as many others I wouldn't say it's because of Shin's powerlevel, it's more about being afraid to hit a god of the universe. While we can only assume Shin is stronger, it's not by a huge margin. And I can see Piccolo winning the battle even with lower power level.
Also it's fair to assume Piccolo is weaker than Dabura, he wasn't fighting him but he got turned to stone fast so his reaction time might have been much lower than Dabura.
How does Piccolo compare to Goten and Trunks? He was a bit amazed by the kids Super Saiyan powers but I wouldn't say he would lose a battle to them 2v1. 18 didn't, so Piccolo wouldn't too.
Gotenks is a more difficult subject.
According to my own fusion multipliers Gotenks first appeariance is more or less around Cell Saga Super Saiyan Goku and Piccolo's pretty amazed by the power. But I'll say he's more impressed of the possiblity of putting a Super Saiyan on top of that.
But how strong did Piccolo get? We would have to guess a peace time multiplayer for him and sadly so far we didn't have any, we know he got incredibly more powerful between Frieza and Android Saga. Let's give him a similar multiplier Goku and Vegeta had, since as far as we know he peaked and can't improve on a similar magnitude as before. And while I don't like the idea that after 7 years Piccolo would be weaker than Perfect Cell, well, Cell was more than 2 times stronger than Piccolo in his Perfect form. I don't see Goku becoming 2 times stronger in that time and Piccolo wasn't shown to be training his ass off on Earth, unlike Vegeta.
Still, as a namekian and being very young for one I'm giving him a 9% increase per year. Slightly more than Goku, but he has no transformations to master.
Piccolo in Buu Saga: 1,540,000,000
While weaker than Perfect Cell in terms of power level I do think Piccolo would find a way to win with Perfect Cell with some tactics.
And since Piccolo doesn't really need to train better for Dragon Ball Super, in those 4 years lets keep the same multiplier.
Piccolo (early Dragon Ball Super): 2,174,000,000 . Still behind Teen Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 but stronger than Perfect Cell.
The only instance in which Piccolo is weaker is in the movie Resurrection F, when Shisami matches or is stronger than Piccolo.while being defeated by Super Saiyan Gohan's single punch.
I really don't like that scene at all. Piccolo weaker than a slacking Super Saiyan Gohan? Despite later giving a good fight to Frost, who was not a lot weaker than a Super Saiyan Goku? Movie manga didn't have that sequence at all, and regular manga skipped that moment. Therefore if we try to treat movies as much canon as we can I'll say Piccolo was pretty tired at that point, spending a lot of power to defeat Frieza's soliders. Gohan thanks to transformation available was just able to conserve energy much better than Piccolo.
For now I'll leave Piccolo at that level, I will have to estimate his power against Frost, who is stronger than Piccolo and weaker than Super Saiyan Goku and later's Piccolo power after he did a quick training with Gohan and was said to improve immensely.
Master Roshi
I'll add Roshi here, because he's one of the most fun characters in the series. DBS retconned him a bit, saying that he trained in secret for all these years and I'm all for it. He also has his own version of Ultra Instinct (in the manga) that allows him to fight Jiren and defeat Kahseral despite being said to have a powerlevel "low as dirt".
He has 3 "modes"
- base, where his last noted powerlevel was 139 when not fighting in early Saiyan Saga. He's very thin in that mode
- serious mode, with well developed muscles. He used that mode to fight Goku and Tien during tournament fights. During his fight with Goku his power was around 120 ki, when fighting Tien he was definitely over 139 (and over Yamcha). It's hard to say how strong he was compared to Krillin but he's far weaker than Tien, who didn't need to get serious to win with Roshi. For now we can estimate that he was between 139 and 170.
- Full Power Mode, in this form he's at his strongest but he might actually be slower than in his serious mode because of all the muscle mass. He used that form to blow up the moon and to fight Frieza soliders, so we can assume he needed more power than speed for a better crowd control when fighting Frieza army. It's unknown how many times stronger he is in that mode, probably at least 2 times.
In Ressurection F movie & manga he was kicking ass of Frieza soliders but he was seen to be damaged way more than other characters.
Regular Frieza solider has a powerlevel between 1000 and 2000 and Roshi is probably at least 2,5 times stronger since he can defeat many soliders at once,
It's been 26 years since we learned Roshi's last powerlevel of 139 .
We can assume that he peaked many years ago but that he knows how to train more effectively than Goku, so let's give him a 10% multiplier every year since then so after 26 years he's at 1657 in his base form. And that's fair, with his Full Power Mode being at least 2 times stronger Roshi can definitely smack around several Frieza's soliders
As for the rest of humans I need to talk about something first.
I'm a huge fan of Tien, Krillin and Yamcha. I'm not a fan of leaving them so far behind the main cast that they are pretty much useless, especially Tien who was a major threat to Goku and Roshi before, never stopped training and doesn't have a goal in life aside of mastering martial arts.
In my opinion it's Tien, not Roshi, who should be the closest to achieving Ultra Instinct as Roshi pretty much retired after fighting Tien in the original Dragon Ball.
So how strong should be human characters after Frieza saga. Is their power in thousands or milions? The answer is- it doesn't really matter that much. So why not make them as strong as we can?
Another question is- do you have a problem if at some point (early Android saga) humans were stronger in base form than Goku? Goku still has kaioken and super saiyan while Tien, Krillin and Yamcha have nothing. Toriyama didn't even bother giving them kaioken.
So I'm a huge fan of humans, I'm not a fan of extreme gaps in power levels and I don't see anything wrong with having humans stronger than base Goku at some point, now lets go to
Tien
Last recorded powerlevel of Tien is in Saiyan Saga when he was at 1830 and got dominated by Nappa. Even 100% Tri Beam wasn't enough to really damage Nappa.
After that Tien trained with King Kai for about 267 days (while Goku spent there 158 days in Saiyan Saga), got destroyed by 17 and his only other feat, albeit a massive one, was using his new Neo Tri Beam technique to keep Semi-perfect Cell in place, giving 18 and 16 time to escape, which almost cost Tien his life.
But there's one important thing to note- 16 with a punch wasn't even able to phase Cell, while Tien's technique could blow Cell away and do some minor damage to him. DB Wiki article about Neo Tri Beam says it's power is 100 times bigger than the user.
I like to think that Tien uses the principle of Kaioken to power up original Tri Beam. Instead of rising every ki point in his body like with kaioken Tien focuses the power in his hands, rising it even more.
If we assume *100 as a multiplier for Neo Tri Beam it's easy to estimate that the power of Tien is higher than 1% of 16. Android 16 estimations usually are around 500,000,000 so Tien should be at least at 6,500,000 to make an impact with Neo Tri Beam.
Super Saiyan Goku was said to be weaker than Super Saiyan Vegeta back in Android Saga, and Vegeta was far from 18's max power, he got crushed fast when 18 stopped playing around. Therefore I estimate 18 being at 350,000,000 and Vegeta being near 300,000,000 in his Super Saiyan state. That would put base Tien above base Goku in Android Saga.
But how did Tien get there?
Goku on King Kai's planet got ~19 times stronger in 158 days. Tien spent more time there (267/158 = * 1,69), didn't "waste" time on learning kaioken and spirit bomb (*1,25), he had a company outside of King Kai to train with (*1,2) and he said in his mind that he needs to train harder than Goku because he doesn't want to always be behind (*1,15).
Therefore I estimate that after training with King Kai Tien was at 102,594. And that would support the anime filler when he fights Jeice and Burter at the same time and wins.
Then he trains lightly for 11 months before Frieza arrives. Tien still didn't peak at this point and knows that Goku is still much stronger so 10% increase seems fair. He's at 112,853 when Frieza arrives. Then he learns that Goku and Frieza are leagues ahead and outside his reach + that in 3 years androids kill everyone. That's as good motivation to train as when saiyans were coming to Earth, so the multiplier for his upcoming training will reflect that.
In a year he got 7,32 times stronger, but back then he still had to master ki control, so his gains back then were more significant. Still Piccolo in that time improved with a pace of *5,25 in a year (going from around 1,344,000 to over 150,000,000 in 3 years) and I don't see why Tien wouldn't be able to pull 75% of that- he saw how strong a super saiyan is so he had a clear vision of his goal strength.
With 3,9375 increase/year Tien would reach 6,889,000 in 3 years + he developed Neo Tri Beam that multiplies his power by *100 (at least the first attack, I can see next blasts getting much weaker). That allowed to keep Semi-Perfect Cell in place while doing him some minor damage.
How about later Tien feats?
There were only a few- Tien redirected Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed) attack with his Neo Tri Beam and then got ko'ed with one kick.
In Dragon Ball Super Tien is even more useless, not being able to put any fight against Beerus, he helps defeat Frieza's soliders, during Tournament of Power isn't able to damage Frost (well, at least Frost is much stronger than he was during the previous tournament) and gets quickly knocked out by him. In the galactic prisoner saga he's not able to help Yamcha fight Zauyogi which was extremely disappointing- it means Yamcha is not far behind Tien in terms of power and that's just insulting to Tien.
So it's fair to say that Tien peaked in Android Saga (meaning Toriyama stopped caring about him completely) and that his later increases in power weren't as spectacular. With *1,085 increase per year he would be at 12,195,000 in Buu Saga and 16,900,000 at the start of Super.
And while I would love to give Tien 30,000,000 I don't think I can, Frost not being damaged by Neo Tri Beam really puts a hard cap on Tien's power.
Krillin
The strongest human. Not really, Krillin while being an awesome and fun character stops training far too many times to be stronger than Tien. Toriyama shits on Tien so much already that I simply won't allow Krillin to be stronger.
Krillin's last recorded powerlevel that didn't use bullshit power-ups was 1770 in Saiyan Saga and it's a really important number. It's only slightly weaker than Tien's power at the time while Krillin was much weaker than Tien before that. Back in Dragon Ball Krillin was also catching up to Tien's level fast, despite being much weaker when Tien was introduced.
This suggests that Krillin trains more effectively than Tien.
Krillin has a "neo tri beam" of his own, the destructo disc. How strong it is? Well, it cut off Frieza's tail but Frieza might have had his guard down. Since Goku can be killed with a laser ring when having a guard down while Super Saiyan Blue it really doesn't say much about Destructo Disc power. But 1st form Frieza most likely had his guard down when Nail chopped his neck so Destructo Disc is definitely over 10 times stronger than that. My estimation would be between *20 and *40 so I should give it *30 multiplier and call it a day.
Krillin will be harder to estimate the power level, since it's not stated that he ever trained with King Kai and he had his potential unleashed which made him grow rapidly in power during the battle with Frieza. Worst part is that no one knows when it stopped and at what powerlevel.
When fighting Guldo his power is stated to be at 13,000 while later he has no problem fighting Ginyu Goku, meaning his power is around 23,000.
The last semi-official power level stated for Krillin is 75,000 when fighting Frieza, but it's unknown if it's at the start or the end of the battle.
It might be important to note that between 13,000 and 23,000 not much time has passed + Krillin was healed with a senzu bean. While before that Krillin's potential was unlocked, Krillin's power grew to a certain point (Vegeta mistook Krillin's energy signature for Zarbon at first) and then apparently stopped at 13,000.
This could mean that Krillin got a zenkai-like ability for a short while, powering him up immensely after being healed after a hard fight.
But let's go step by step:
Krillin during Saiyan attack: 1770. Maybe 1814 when he's healed with half a senzu.
Krillin on Namek: ~2500 (over one month of image training with Gohan)
Krillin post power up, early: 13,000 (steadily grows)
Krillin after senzu bean: around 23,000
Krillin start Frieza: 75,000
Krillin at the moment of death (stops growing): 132,750
I used the same increase he had during the fight with Recoome.
Around 15 months pass between Krillin's ressurection and Frieza's arrival so let's give Krillin a 12,5% increase since then.
Krillin when Frieza returns: 149,300
Now the training to Android saga is very hard to calculate, because Krillin has even less feats visible than Tien, even if we use anime filler we don't have much to work with- in the filler he's able to at least survive Gero's few attacks (well, it's more than what Yamcha achieved) and headbutted Imperfect Cell. He didn't fight 17 and 18 and later bravely attacked Semi-Perfect and Perfect Cell despite not dealing any damage.
But we start with Krillin being stronger than Tien and a hint that he might actually train better than Tien. We also want to throw a bone to people who say that Krillin is the strongest human (that includes Toriyama apparently and we want to thank him for the series too).
Krillin also fought Frieza and knows best of all humans how strong Frieza is, so his goal in training is very clear.
I'll give him a yearly increase of 4,59375 which is between Piccolo's and Tien's increases in that time. It's also a close number to 4,6218, which is a a Tien's multiplier higher by 17% , a difference in power gain Krillin and Tien had back in Saiyan Saga.
So Krillin at he start of Android is at 14,473,000. The only thing that might contradict this powerlevel is that Base Vegeta opened Gero's lab door despite being now apparently weaker in base form than Krillin. But ki attacks are always seen to be much stronger than regular punches + it probably hurts as hell to punch a wall with 100% of your strength without breaking a bone while using a ki blast is much safer.
But despite being that strong Krillin peaked. He stopped training after Cell Saga and I don't see him even trying to keep the powerlevel he had. I'm giving him a 5% decrease/year.
Krillin in Buu Saga: 10,107,000. I'm not giving him a power increase for 10 days of training towards the tournament, not after 7 years. 10 days would be enough to dust off his abilities and bring back some battle instincts, nothing more.
Krillin also doesn't train in 4 years to Dragon Ball Super, so with further 5% decrease he's at
Krillin (early Dragon Ball Super): 8,232,000
But then finally in the galactic prisoner saga Krillin trains for 2 months and with 18 as a training partner I see him going back to his peak. We'll use the same increase as before (but divided by 6 since it's not a full year) and Krillin during his rematch with Yunba is at 13,162,000.
And yes, I didn't mention Tien's increase in that 2 months time but he isn't as motivated as Krillin, he doesn't have 18 as a training partner and his gains were always lower so that number isn't as significant as Krillin's increase.
Yamcha
Everyone loves Yamcha. He isn't really a top martial artist but he never really was, and Krillin was always stronger than him, even when Krillin stopped training and it was stated that Yamcha actually never stopped training, keeping in shape just in case of emergency. In the Galactic Patrol saga he's seen kicking ass of space convicts, 3 at the same time and they were definitely above Frieza's soliders in terms of power.
Last recorded powerlevel of Yamcha was 1480 during the Saiyan Attack, and he was killed by a selfdestructing Saibaman (power of that attack was likely to be around 3600).
Since then he trained with King Kai for 136 days but requesting a harder training than Goku had. Using a similar multipliers Tien had (but with shorter training time) Yamcha should be at 43,315.
That might be a tad too close to Recoome, who he defeats without much problem in the anime filler, but Yamcha still has techniques of his own:
His Wolf Fang Fist and it's evolved forms strike the opponent with greater speed & power than the user's powerlevel would suggest. Since it didn't do much against Kami I would say it's *1,5 increase, which would later be boosted to probably around *2,475 because of Yamcha's complete training with Kami and using ki control to boost the power of his moves when needed.
His Spirit Ball was able to hit Kami HARD, despite Kami being probably 2 times faster and stronger when they fought. Kami praised the technique afterwards. Even before Yamcha learned proper ki control I would say the technique multiplier is *2, which was boosted to probably around * 3,3 later.
Back to his powerlevel, we'll leave 43,315 for now and say that just like Krillin he trained lightly before Frieza comes to Earth, giving him a powerlevel of 48,729.
He freaked out when he sensed Frieza's suppressed power of probably 30-60 milion and that definitely put a goal in his mind for the upcoming 3 years of training.
As for the training I don't think Yamcha is the same league as Tien and Krillin. Despite having bigger gains than Tien in Saiyan Saga he was very weak compared to Tien before they trained together (177 compared to 250) , so he was weaker than Tien was back when Tien was introduced for the first time, and that's 7 years before that. In 7 years Yamcha wasn't able to match Tien's first appeariance in the series, while Tien in that time got stronger than young King Piccolo.
So I'm giving Yamcha 65% of Piccolo's increase in that time (*3,4125/year) compared to Tien's 75%.
Yamcha (Android Saga): 1,936,000. And that seems fair, at first Android 19 and 20 confuse his power level with Goku's so it's definitely not 10,000 as some of the powerlevel lists online suggest..
Yamcha stops being a fighter after Android Saga, but as mentioned before it's stated that he still trains. Since he doesn't train towards a certain goal I'm giving him a 5% increase per year.
Yamcha (Buu Saga): 2,724,000.
Yamcha has no feats in fighting in Buu Saga (not counting anime filler). I'm keeping the same 5% increase when going to DBS
Yamcha (Dragon Ball Super): 3,311,000.
At that level he definitely wouldn't have a hard time defeating some Moro magic boosted convicts (who are probably between 20,000 - 200,000 when it comes to powerlevels)
Chiaotzu
I don't think another fighter gets as little screen time as the little pale fella.
When it comes to manga canon fights Chiaotzu peaks at selfdestructing against Nappa, not being strong enough to blow up his armor. Before that he was nearly killed by Mercenary Tao and defeated by Krillin during his own introduction.
His last and probably only powerlevel stated was 610 during the Saiyan attack and many people strongly suggest Yajirobe was stronger at that point, weekly shonen jump saying he was at 970.
But we can work with that, we've got Yamcha so we can get little fella as well.
After dying he went to train with King Kai for as long as Tien trained. We'll give him an identical increase Tien had, so basically he's still 3 times weaker than Tien:
Chiaotzu (after King Kai): 34,200. In the anime filler he defeats Guldo with no problem and that level would fit.
Chiaotzu (Frieza arrives): 37,617
Now 3 years pass towards the Android Saga. Chiaotzu was never in the same league as Yamcha and Tien commented during early Android Saga that Chiaotzu was too weak to bring him, so even when I'm generous and giving Chiaotzu 50% of what Piccolo had in terms of power increase it still seems a lot.
Chiaotzu (Android Saga): 680,412
So Tien sensing that his friend is 100 times weaker than suppressed Frieza would make him not wanna risk Chiaotzu's life during Android attack. Still, Chiaotzu never stopped helping Tien get stronger so he trained with him. I don't think his multiplier should be Tien's 1,085 but it should be higher than Yamcha's 1,05. 1,0675 is in the middle.
Chiaotzu (Buu Saga): 1,075,000
Chiaotzu (Dragon Ball Super): 1,396,000.
Why not?
EDIT:
Android 18
18 just like Chiaotzu is very hard to estimate, since we never see her training, even in anime I think she's only training with Krillin for the Tournament of Power and there was a very little time to improve.
We have no good numbers or estimations for the opponents she defeats during the Tournament which also doesn't help.
We only know that she cannot get weaker and I see her getting a little stronger in 7 years.
18 (Buu Saga): 375,000,000
With similar slight increases towards Dragon Ball Super.
18 (early Super): 390,000,000
I will continue listing her levels in later DBS after I figure out how many days she can train. She will definitely improve by a huge margin before her battle with Moro (but probably below Piccolo)
Android 17
17 got retconned in DBS and it was said that the dude is training, being able to overpower and scare Super Saiyan 3 Goku before Tournament of Power. In order to be in a similar magnitude of power I'm giving him a 45% increase in power/year
17 (Buu Saga): 4,986,000,000
17 (Tournament of Power): 46,300,000,000
As with 18 I will list his powerlevel during the Moro fight later.
Wednesday, May 13, 2020
Lets talk about fusions
Fusions throw the power scalling out of the window.
As soon as Gotenks shows up in the Buu Saga the whole power scalling goes wild.
We have 2 options, none of which is perfect:
Option 1. Blow up the numbers, make base Gotenks stronger than a Super Saiyan Goku. Then when he goes
Super Saiyan 3 make him 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku (with fixed multipliers it will end up that way). Make Ultimate Gohan also 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
Make Vegito extremely powerful.
It might work in Buu Saga. What is the problem?
There's no way in the upcoming 4 years to Dragon Ball Super to make it work:
- Goku in 4 years won't get 50 times stronger (especially that Beerus in the anime/movie mentions that Base Goku wouldn't take out Frieza, I know it doesn't happen in the manga but it's important not to stray away from the anime/movie canon anyway).
- Gohan in 4 years won't get so weak that he can't take 1st form Frieza (also anime/movie canon I know).
- Gotenks wouldn't give Beerus such a weak fight, being many times stronger than Goku/Vegeta
- Vegeta, whose showed power is surpassing Gotenks and Gohan when Beerus shows up wouldn't in 4 years get what, over 200 times stronger? Because if we take option 1 then in Buu Saga he's around 4 times weaker than Goku, who is 50 times weaker than Gohan/Gotenks.
- if fusion is so strong we have other things to worry about later- Kelfa, even if at the time of her forming Caulifla and Kale were weakened, Kefla would be multiple times stronger. If Kale was able to surprise Blue Goku then with like *5- *10 fusion multiplier she would wreck Jiren. Fusion Zamasu wouldn't be stopped by Perfected Super Saiyan Blue unless this state was like ~50 times stronger than regular Super Saiyan Blue, which also seems like a stupid idea.
I don't like the above problems, even if some feats here and there suggest it's the right way (the biggest problem is Piccolo being amazed by Base Gotenks power and base Vegito in DBS blowing a huge chunk of Fused Zamasu, which is the most stupid scene in the manga if we think about it, since in DBZ Vegito went Super Saiyan as soon as he showed up).
So, Option nr 2:
Downplay the fusion, fuck with the multipliers.
Super Saiyan is *50? No, lets assume that fusion steals some of that power and the multiplier for a Super Saiyan is *5. It helps make the base fusion characters a bit stronger than usually, *5 is enough of a difference to still make Super Saiyan viable.
We know both fusion methods are unstable- Super Saiyan 3 made Gotenks defuse faster and Super Saiyan Blue Vegito lasted also probably only a few minutes. We can bullshit a theory that Super Saiyan is fucking with fusions to make it work in the power level list. Also it's really easy to assume that fusions weren't made with super saiyans in mind so they wouldn't be super compatible with them.
So, what are my multipliers for fusion and which fusion is better?
At first I had an unpopular opinion that Fusion Dance is actually better, because the feats observed from fusions were more impressive in Fusion Dance cases, Fusion Dance is more restricted and needs both a flawless dance and great ki control and Potara is basically a magic tool while a technique should be stronger.
And before we go to my conclusions let's talk a while about known fusions and their feats, just that we are all on the same page.
Gotenks is made of Trunks and Goten, kids who in their Super Saiyan state can surprise Android 18, but are probably weaker than her. Base Gotenks doesn't have any feats outside of impressing Piccolo with his power, he gets badly beaten up by Fat Buu.
Even after training in Room of Spirit and Time Base Gotenks can barely make Super Buu move with his attacks.
Even after turning into a Super Saiyan, Buu still doesn't need to take the battle seriously. Gotenks is definitely much weaker than Buu.
Super Saiyan 3 is a different story, he puts Goku's to shame and definitely is stronger than Super Buu when Gotenks gets serious.
It's important to say I don't see Gotenks being stronger than Goku or Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super- Goten and Trunks don't take training seriously.
Vegito is made of Goku and Vegeta both in Buu Saga and in Zamasu Saga. It was very hard at first to set any numbers, because Dragon Ball Z ended with Super Saiyan Vegito being the strongest character shown, some sources even said that his power equals the power of Goku multiplied by the power of Vegeta. That number is absolutely insane, even without a Super Saiyan. And since we don't see such feats shown in a short fight between Zamasu and Vegito in Super I'm going to ignore it.
What we see in a manga canon is Vegito entering Super Saiyan and totally dominating Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks absorbed). There was a debate if Vegito is using a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2, but sadly most sources suggest it's a regular Super Saiyan.
For the numbers it would be much easier if Vegito was a Super Saiyan 2 in that fight, because even if Goten, Trunks and their fusion Gotenks is much weaker than Vegito, when we put all the multipliers of Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 then it turns out their power is similar. But more about it later, since I managed to cheat a bit and make it work better.
Kibitoshin is an another fusion of Potara but he never fights anyone so we will ignore him.
Dragon Ball Super introduces a few problems with Potara fusions. They retcon the fusion running time and actually show that Vegito can defuse even faster because of how powerful he is.
First fusion we see there is a Fusion Zamasu, a fusion between Future Zamasu (who is weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks) and Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.
And he doesn't have outstanding feats compared to Goku Black. He dominates Goku and Vegeta initially, but Goku manages to blow a hole in his chest, Vegito before turning Super Saiyan Blue manages to destroy his arm and later a Gamma Burst Flash from Vegeta blows him to pieces.
He is totally outmatched by Super Saiyan Vegito and matched by Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
When it comes to numbers I would say fusion isn't much stronger than Goku Black because there's a huge gap in power between the fusing characters.
Vegito makes his return in Super and he outclasses Fusion Zamasu in a very short fight. Sadly he plays around with Zamasu and defuses before firing his ultimate attack. Supreme Kai says Vegito might be stronger than Beerus but we know he isn't a reliable source of information.
There is one problem with Vegito, and it's blowing the Zamasu's arm before he goes Super Saiyan Blue. This is one of the reasons why in my previous post I added Saiyan Beyond God state, because base Vegito wouldn't be strong enough to deal such damage to Fusion Zamasu. Saiyan Beyond God Vegito has much closer numbers.
Kefla is a fusion between saiyans Caulifla and Kale and it's a similar case to Fusion Zamasu, where the fusion is between characters with a huge difference in power, as Super Saiyan Caulifla is weaker than Base Kale.
The worst part about Kefla is that she's much weaker than she would be if the fusing characters weren't already battle worn. Caulifla got her ass seriously beat by Frieza and Dyspo, while Kale after having a monstrous power in her Legendary Super Saiyan state (called in the manga Power Stressed Super Saiyan) had a majority of her power spent and she was close to collapsing.
She was definitely still very strong, blowing away multiple fighters after fusing but he draw the battle with Gohan.
The powerlevel of Gohan is a subject for another post since he's the most inconsistent character in Dragon Ball. But many fans online agree that Gohan at this point is weaker than Goku and Frieza, while being stronger than Android 17.
It's fair to assume that Kefla during the Tournament of Power is much weaker than Power Stressed/Legendary Super Saiyan Kale. She is formed from weakened fighters, Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan is not compatible with Caulifla's regular Super Saiyan and there's a huge power gap between the fighters fusing like with Zamasu.
I put her slightly above Super Saiyan Kale, who managed to surprise Frieza but he was still confident he would win a battle with her if he went full power. And of course she's at 50% of her power, if both Caulifla and Kale were at their 100% before fusing then Kefla would be stronger than all fighters at the time except for Jiren.
I want to include Gogeta here, because Dragon Ball Super movies are in that weird, joined canon between anime and manga, where no one is using Mastered Super Saiyan Blue or Kaioken Super Saiyan Blue. As of writing this post I don't have all the numbers figured out, but I'm positive that after including Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Beyond God transformations I can make them work.
So let's talk feats shown- Gogeta is a fusion dance character created by Goku and Vegeta fusing and unlike Vegito he's serious, not playing around when fighting. In his Saiyan Beyond God he only dodges some of Broly's blasts and he transforms into a Super Saiyan Beyond God after that.
In this state he's stronger than Super Saiyan Broly, forcing Broly to go Legendary Super Saiyan/ Power Stressed Super Saiyan, where Broly is shown to surpass Gogeta.
But after Gogeta goes Super Saiyan Blue it's game over for Broly, even if we assume that he still gets stronger (unlike Kale, who in the Tournament of Power started losing power after power stressing) he is not able to close the gap to Gogeta and is nearly killed after sustaining a bunch of powerful attacks.
Ok, we talked about fusion characters, so which fusion is stronger?
Based on feats I was previously stating that Fusion Dance is stronger than Potara. Other argument was that a technique that requires perfect movements and precise ki control should be stronger than a magic earring.
But the Broly movie, which I really wanted to include to manga canon really flipped every idea I had for numbers- Gogeta was just too strong in his Super Saiyan Blue, the numbers went absolutely insane.
And I really got tired looking at the discussions online having good arguments for both fusions. So as you can expect I went with:
Fusions are equal in power.
It's a really, really boring idea, but it works best.
So what are the numbers?
(power_x + power_y) *100 (but the Super Saiyan multiplier is lowered to *5).
Additionally for Fusion dance the power levels need to be equal, and in potara fusion case a huge difference in power between characters fusing means the multiplier is
(power_x + power_y) *2
Therefore Goku was right when thinking that fusing with Mr.Satan could make him weaker.
There is one issue with these numbers though and I need to cheat in order to make it work.
Goten and Trunks are multiple times weaker than Goku and Vegeta, but when we start stacking that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers ( *8) then we have a problem with Super Saiyan Vegito in Buu Saga.
Hopefully we can all agree that the difference in power isn't extremely huge between adults and kids- Goten was weaker than Gohan but it's about a *2 - *4 difference as he was close to hitting Gohan in fights while Gohan is about *2 weaker than Goku. Trunks is much weaker than Vegeta, but he managed to touch Vegeta's face during the training so *4-*8 difference is also very likely.
With *8 difference between the pair of adults and kids and using official (?) multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 we see that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is very close or even stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. And Super Saiyan Vegito outclassed Super Buu (Gohan,Piccolo,Trunks,Goten absorbed).
We want it to work so we cheat by saying: hey, we never saw Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks, right? And both Trunks and Goten can't go Super Saiyan 2 on their own, right? They only had about 1 week to train in the Room of Spirit and Time (people always assume Goten and Trunks got 2 times more powerful in that time which I call major bullshit) so I openly cheat and state that they skipped Super Saiyan 2 and went to Super Saiyan 3, which would skip Super Saiyan 2 multiplier.
Therefore in my powerlevel list Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is 4 times stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks, not 8 times.
And yes, I'm aware that Super Saiyan Vegito seems too close in numbers to Buu. But we know that Vegito has at least one more transformation up his sleeve, so please be aware that he's still majorily holding back. That's the worst part- if it was officially stated Vegito was in his Super Saiyan 2 state then we wouldn't have to cheat with Gotenks and there would be a nice huge gap in numbers between Buu and Vegito.
Our next topic is Gohan, Piccolo and human characters and then we go straight to the numbers, I promise
As soon as Gotenks shows up in the Buu Saga the whole power scalling goes wild.
We have 2 options, none of which is perfect:
Option 1. Blow up the numbers, make base Gotenks stronger than a Super Saiyan Goku. Then when he goes
Super Saiyan 3 make him 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku (with fixed multipliers it will end up that way). Make Ultimate Gohan also 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
Make Vegito extremely powerful.
It might work in Buu Saga. What is the problem?
There's no way in the upcoming 4 years to Dragon Ball Super to make it work:
- Goku in 4 years won't get 50 times stronger (especially that Beerus in the anime/movie mentions that Base Goku wouldn't take out Frieza, I know it doesn't happen in the manga but it's important not to stray away from the anime/movie canon anyway).
- Gohan in 4 years won't get so weak that he can't take 1st form Frieza (also anime/movie canon I know).
- Gotenks wouldn't give Beerus such a weak fight, being many times stronger than Goku/Vegeta
- Vegeta, whose showed power is surpassing Gotenks and Gohan when Beerus shows up wouldn't in 4 years get what, over 200 times stronger? Because if we take option 1 then in Buu Saga he's around 4 times weaker than Goku, who is 50 times weaker than Gohan/Gotenks.
- if fusion is so strong we have other things to worry about later- Kelfa, even if at the time of her forming Caulifla and Kale were weakened, Kefla would be multiple times stronger. If Kale was able to surprise Blue Goku then with like *5- *10 fusion multiplier she would wreck Jiren. Fusion Zamasu wouldn't be stopped by Perfected Super Saiyan Blue unless this state was like ~50 times stronger than regular Super Saiyan Blue, which also seems like a stupid idea.
I don't like the above problems, even if some feats here and there suggest it's the right way (the biggest problem is Piccolo being amazed by Base Gotenks power and base Vegito in DBS blowing a huge chunk of Fused Zamasu, which is the most stupid scene in the manga if we think about it, since in DBZ Vegito went Super Saiyan as soon as he showed up).
So, Option nr 2:
Downplay the fusion, fuck with the multipliers.
Super Saiyan is *50? No, lets assume that fusion steals some of that power and the multiplier for a Super Saiyan is *5. It helps make the base fusion characters a bit stronger than usually, *5 is enough of a difference to still make Super Saiyan viable.
We know both fusion methods are unstable- Super Saiyan 3 made Gotenks defuse faster and Super Saiyan Blue Vegito lasted also probably only a few minutes. We can bullshit a theory that Super Saiyan is fucking with fusions to make it work in the power level list. Also it's really easy to assume that fusions weren't made with super saiyans in mind so they wouldn't be super compatible with them.
So, what are my multipliers for fusion and which fusion is better?
At first I had an unpopular opinion that Fusion Dance is actually better, because the feats observed from fusions were more impressive in Fusion Dance cases, Fusion Dance is more restricted and needs both a flawless dance and great ki control and Potara is basically a magic tool while a technique should be stronger.
And before we go to my conclusions let's talk a while about known fusions and their feats, just that we are all on the same page.
Gotenks is made of Trunks and Goten, kids who in their Super Saiyan state can surprise Android 18, but are probably weaker than her. Base Gotenks doesn't have any feats outside of impressing Piccolo with his power, he gets badly beaten up by Fat Buu.
Even after training in Room of Spirit and Time Base Gotenks can barely make Super Buu move with his attacks.
Even after turning into a Super Saiyan, Buu still doesn't need to take the battle seriously. Gotenks is definitely much weaker than Buu.
Super Saiyan 3 is a different story, he puts Goku's to shame and definitely is stronger than Super Buu when Gotenks gets serious.
It's important to say I don't see Gotenks being stronger than Goku or Vegeta in Dragon Ball Super- Goten and Trunks don't take training seriously.
Vegito is made of Goku and Vegeta both in Buu Saga and in Zamasu Saga. It was very hard at first to set any numbers, because Dragon Ball Z ended with Super Saiyan Vegito being the strongest character shown, some sources even said that his power equals the power of Goku multiplied by the power of Vegeta. That number is absolutely insane, even without a Super Saiyan. And since we don't see such feats shown in a short fight between Zamasu and Vegito in Super I'm going to ignore it.
What we see in a manga canon is Vegito entering Super Saiyan and totally dominating Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks absorbed). There was a debate if Vegito is using a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2, but sadly most sources suggest it's a regular Super Saiyan.
For the numbers it would be much easier if Vegito was a Super Saiyan 2 in that fight, because even if Goten, Trunks and their fusion Gotenks is much weaker than Vegito, when we put all the multipliers of Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 then it turns out their power is similar. But more about it later, since I managed to cheat a bit and make it work better.
Kibitoshin is an another fusion of Potara but he never fights anyone so we will ignore him.
Dragon Ball Super introduces a few problems with Potara fusions. They retcon the fusion running time and actually show that Vegito can defuse even faster because of how powerful he is.
First fusion we see there is a Fusion Zamasu, a fusion between Future Zamasu (who is weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks) and Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.
And he doesn't have outstanding feats compared to Goku Black. He dominates Goku and Vegeta initially, but Goku manages to blow a hole in his chest, Vegito before turning Super Saiyan Blue manages to destroy his arm and later a Gamma Burst Flash from Vegeta blows him to pieces.
He is totally outmatched by Super Saiyan Vegito and matched by Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
When it comes to numbers I would say fusion isn't much stronger than Goku Black because there's a huge gap in power between the fusing characters.
Vegito makes his return in Super and he outclasses Fusion Zamasu in a very short fight. Sadly he plays around with Zamasu and defuses before firing his ultimate attack. Supreme Kai says Vegito might be stronger than Beerus but we know he isn't a reliable source of information.
There is one problem with Vegito, and it's blowing the Zamasu's arm before he goes Super Saiyan Blue. This is one of the reasons why in my previous post I added Saiyan Beyond God state, because base Vegito wouldn't be strong enough to deal such damage to Fusion Zamasu. Saiyan Beyond God Vegito has much closer numbers.
Kefla is a fusion between saiyans Caulifla and Kale and it's a similar case to Fusion Zamasu, where the fusion is between characters with a huge difference in power, as Super Saiyan Caulifla is weaker than Base Kale.
The worst part about Kefla is that she's much weaker than she would be if the fusing characters weren't already battle worn. Caulifla got her ass seriously beat by Frieza and Dyspo, while Kale after having a monstrous power in her Legendary Super Saiyan state (called in the manga Power Stressed Super Saiyan) had a majority of her power spent and she was close to collapsing.
She was definitely still very strong, blowing away multiple fighters after fusing but he draw the battle with Gohan.
The powerlevel of Gohan is a subject for another post since he's the most inconsistent character in Dragon Ball. But many fans online agree that Gohan at this point is weaker than Goku and Frieza, while being stronger than Android 17.
It's fair to assume that Kefla during the Tournament of Power is much weaker than Power Stressed/Legendary Super Saiyan Kale. She is formed from weakened fighters, Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan is not compatible with Caulifla's regular Super Saiyan and there's a huge power gap between the fighters fusing like with Zamasu.
I put her slightly above Super Saiyan Kale, who managed to surprise Frieza but he was still confident he would win a battle with her if he went full power. And of course she's at 50% of her power, if both Caulifla and Kale were at their 100% before fusing then Kefla would be stronger than all fighters at the time except for Jiren.
I want to include Gogeta here, because Dragon Ball Super movies are in that weird, joined canon between anime and manga, where no one is using Mastered Super Saiyan Blue or Kaioken Super Saiyan Blue. As of writing this post I don't have all the numbers figured out, but I'm positive that after including Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Beyond God transformations I can make them work.
So let's talk feats shown- Gogeta is a fusion dance character created by Goku and Vegeta fusing and unlike Vegito he's serious, not playing around when fighting. In his Saiyan Beyond God he only dodges some of Broly's blasts and he transforms into a Super Saiyan Beyond God after that.
In this state he's stronger than Super Saiyan Broly, forcing Broly to go Legendary Super Saiyan/ Power Stressed Super Saiyan, where Broly is shown to surpass Gogeta.
But after Gogeta goes Super Saiyan Blue it's game over for Broly, even if we assume that he still gets stronger (unlike Kale, who in the Tournament of Power started losing power after power stressing) he is not able to close the gap to Gogeta and is nearly killed after sustaining a bunch of powerful attacks.
Ok, we talked about fusion characters, so which fusion is stronger?
Based on feats I was previously stating that Fusion Dance is stronger than Potara. Other argument was that a technique that requires perfect movements and precise ki control should be stronger than a magic earring.
But the Broly movie, which I really wanted to include to manga canon really flipped every idea I had for numbers- Gogeta was just too strong in his Super Saiyan Blue, the numbers went absolutely insane.
And I really got tired looking at the discussions online having good arguments for both fusions. So as you can expect I went with:
Fusions are equal in power.
It's a really, really boring idea, but it works best.
So what are the numbers?
(power_x + power_y) *100 (but the Super Saiyan multiplier is lowered to *5).
Additionally for Fusion dance the power levels need to be equal, and in potara fusion case a huge difference in power between characters fusing means the multiplier is
(power_x + power_y) *2
Therefore Goku was right when thinking that fusing with Mr.Satan could make him weaker.
There is one issue with these numbers though and I need to cheat in order to make it work.
Goten and Trunks are multiple times weaker than Goku and Vegeta, but when we start stacking that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers ( *8) then we have a problem with Super Saiyan Vegito in Buu Saga.
Hopefully we can all agree that the difference in power isn't extremely huge between adults and kids- Goten was weaker than Gohan but it's about a *2 - *4 difference as he was close to hitting Gohan in fights while Gohan is about *2 weaker than Goku. Trunks is much weaker than Vegeta, but he managed to touch Vegeta's face during the training so *4-*8 difference is also very likely.
With *8 difference between the pair of adults and kids and using official (?) multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 we see that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is very close or even stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. And Super Saiyan Vegito outclassed Super Buu (Gohan,Piccolo,Trunks,Goten absorbed).
We want it to work so we cheat by saying: hey, we never saw Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks, right? And both Trunks and Goten can't go Super Saiyan 2 on their own, right? They only had about 1 week to train in the Room of Spirit and Time (people always assume Goten and Trunks got 2 times more powerful in that time which I call major bullshit) so I openly cheat and state that they skipped Super Saiyan 2 and went to Super Saiyan 3, which would skip Super Saiyan 2 multiplier.
Therefore in my powerlevel list Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is 4 times stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks, not 8 times.
And yes, I'm aware that Super Saiyan Vegito seems too close in numbers to Buu. But we know that Vegito has at least one more transformation up his sleeve, so please be aware that he's still majorily holding back. That's the worst part- if it was officially stated Vegito was in his Super Saiyan 2 state then we wouldn't have to cheat with Gotenks and there would be a nice huge gap in numbers between Buu and Vegito.
Our next topic is Gohan, Piccolo and human characters and then we go straight to the numbers, I promise
Friday, May 8, 2020
Transformation multipliers
Welcome to my first discussion post where I will introduce multipliers used in my power level list.
Since it's a bit lengthy I will post the multipliers here and talk about them afterwards:
Super Saiyan: Base *50
Ascended Super Saiyan: Base *80
Ultra Super Saiyan: Base * 110
Legendary Super Saiyan: Base *120
Super Saiyan 2: Super Saiyan *2 , up to Super Saiyan *10 with mastery.
Super Saiyan 3 : Super Saiyan 2 *4
Super Saiyan God : Super Saiyan 3 * 10
Saiyan Beyond God: Base * 400 so the same as Super Saiyan 3
Super Saiyan Beyond God: Saiyan Beyond God * 5 so a half of Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue: Super Saiyan God *5
Super Saiyan God-to-Blue: Super Saiyan Blue * 1,5
Mastered Super Saiyan Blue: Super Saiyan Blue *2
Evolved Super Saiyan Blue: Mastered Super Saiyan Blue *2,5
Ultra Instinct: yet to be estimated.
1. Kaioken. While more technique than a transformation it multiplies user's base power and the strongest we see is kaioken *20 that Goku uses against Frieza on Namek. Because this transformation can damage the user's body and Super Saiyan being much stronger it's soon pretty much forgotten.
One important note is that I believe Tien uses the principle of this technique in order to make Neo Tri Beam multiple times much stronger than the original Tri Beam and much safer to the user too.
I understand Kaioken as controlling and rising ki in every cell/muscle of your body, which is why it's so hard to master and the humans didn't bother to learn it (of course we know that the real answer is Toriyama didn't care about them enough in order to give them the technique).
Therefore I can see Tien using the principle of Kaioken only on his hands, since Tri Beam also focuses all of user's energy in his hands. That's why Neo Tri Beam was able to push and give minor injuries to Semi-Perfect Cell despite Tien being over a hundred times weaker- the technique's multiplier is *100. And it's not a number I made up, it's actually written on a Dragon Ball Wiki and I liked it, it made sense for me.
2. Super Saiyan. I'm not going to write much here, the multiplier is *50 as originally stated.
I do however need to cheat in 2 cases and lower the multiplier to *5.
- Fusions. Both potara and fusion dance make an ultimate warrior, often shown in base form as extremely powerful.
We see Base Gotenks impress Piccolo and attack Super Buu in that state.
We see Vegito blow up a huge chunk of Fusion Zamasu in his "base" form (more about it later)
We see Gogeta fly around Broly's attacks in his "base" form
If we put *50 modifier on that we would have some serious powerscaling issues. I will write about it more in a post about fusions but basically we see Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan being weaker than Goku in Dragon Ball Super.
If we blew up the multipliers and said that Super Saiyan Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku then Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be several times stronger than Goku. I don't see Goku getting ~4 times stronger in 4 years, sorry.
Fusions also weren't made with super saiyans in mind, I would say that super saiyan puts a lot of strain of the body already, therefore the multiplier is *5 in that case..
- Goku Black. I started this project by trying to cover Zamasu saga first, since it's the most inconsistent with power levels and powerscaling. I might discuss this in another post but Base Goku Black can defeat Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (not full power) who at full power can match Super Saiyan 3 Goku, while full power Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta can defeat a Super Saiyan Goku Black.
In easier (?) to read form:
Do You see the problem here? If we keep *50 multiplier for Goku Black then it means that full power Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta is multiple times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku! It wouldn't make much sense to me. Sure, it is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 but I would say maybe 25% stronger.
*5 multiplier fits to my numbers so I will keep it. And during writing this post I managed to find a way to explain it.
Goku Black's body isn't in sync when Zamasu's Saga starts. When he swapped bodies with Goku he couldn't even go Super Saiyan, but through zenkai the body started accepting the new host and unlock Goku's powers.
At the start of the saga his Super Saiyan isn't perfected yet. It is after Zamasu heals Goku Black, that's why he gets absolutely destroyed by Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at first but later can hold his own- at first his Super Saiyan multiplier is *5, and after zenkai it's *50.
EDIT: I have a new theory to tackle the problem of Goku Black, more below in a discussion about Super Saiyan Rose.
3. Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan , known as Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3
There are power ups over the base Super Saiyan made by Power Stressing the transformation, increasing muscle mass and by boosting the stamina drain. In my understanding you can't boost the power of Ascended Super Saiyan much more without going to Ultra Super Saiyan, this state just doesn't allow for a more flexible ki control.
There are no 'official' multipliers for these forms, I saw *75 and *90 over the base form once but I do believe that Ultra Super Saiyan is actually stronger than Super Saiyan 2 in terms of the raw power so I won't agree with them.
For me it's:
Base *80 for the Ascended Super Saiyan
Base *110 for the Ultra Super Saiyan
Worth noting that Ascended Super Saiyan is in general an improvement over a standard Super Saiyan, having increased speed and power while having a manageable stamina drain, while Ultra Super Saiyan is slower than a regular Super Saiyan, has a massive stamina drain and maybe even requires recharging to stay in the form.
What about Mastered Super Saiyan? It still has *50 multiplier, but mastering the transformation allows for just a more productive and faster training since the transformation doesn't strain the body at all, allows for powering up during the battle just as Base form does. It is huge and shows that both Goku and Gohan who were weaker than Vegeta before they all trained in the Room of Spirit and Time got much stronger than Vegeta did in 2 years in the chamber without staying a one whole year there.
4. Legendary Super Saiyan
It's a similar form to previous two but the power up multiplier is Base *120. We only see this form once in the manga, second time is in Broly's movie so it's hard to say something certain about it.
It still drains the stamina quickly, as seen with Kale losing a lot of power before fusing but I don't think it's as bad as with Ultra Super Saiyan. The speed is also probably increased, as with Ascended Super Saiyan.
I believe Kale subconsciously entered this state to stop her powerlevel from growing too much for her to control.
Broly in the movie entered this state because he couldn't overpower Super Saiyan Gogeta. Before Gogeta charged his kamehameha we see Broly come back to his senses out of fear in this form, so it might be a state one can control. Maybe the stamina draining and potential ki lowering made him calmer too.
5. Super Saiyan 2
The multiplier for this form is simple, it's *2 the power of a Super Saiyan.
However in the Super manga we see this form outperform a Super Saiyan 3. Angered Vegeta powers up his Super Saiyan 2 so much that the characters state he surpassed Goku and I do believe in that moment Vegeta was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, landing a few hits at supressed Beerus.
Later we see Future Trunks mastery of this form that allows him to match Super Saiyan 3 Goku despite being much weaker than Goku in his base form. Vegeta sees this and takes Trunks to train.
I don't have any reason to think those feats aren't the same thing and soon Vegeta trashes Super Saiyan Goku Black with this form as well. Let's call it a mastered super saiyan 2, with an additional modifier of *5, so 25% stronger than Super Saiyan 3. Which I think is fair.
6. Super Saiyan 3
I'll be using the *4 multiplier with that form, even though I personally think that the gap between super saiyan 2 is too big.
Super Saiyan 3 was a huge problem when trying to sort out Gotenks power level and I had to cheat in an interesting way in order to fit.
Main problem was Vegito fighting Super Buu - trying to set the modifiers for fusions so they would work in both DBZ and DBS was the second hardest thing after Goku Black to figure out. Even if Goten and Trunks are much weaker than Goku and Vegeta (their Super Saiyan can surprise android 18) then with all the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers they are actually surpassing Super Saiyan Vegeto. If Vegeto was using a Super Saiyan 2 then there wouldn't be a problem.
But more about that in the fusions discussion.
7. Super Saiyan God
I wanted to talk about this state a bit later but since this is the point where we need to start making up our own numbers it's good to start with first new transformation introduced in Dragon Ball Super.
We need to estimate how strong this form is- based on feats we know nothing aside of "it's many times stronger than Super Saiyan 3"
If we observe how Goku is transforming to Super Saiyan 3 in the Buu Saga and Goku Black unlocking more transformations it's a simple rule of "add more power to unlock more power".
Transformations are like barriers one needs to break with a huge amount of ki to get them. And since Super Saiyan God requires a ritual where good hearted saiyans focus their energy in one saiyan- lets treat it that way.
So we know that the power of the Super Saiyan God is similar to a power of Goku + the power of Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten. I don't count Pan because she isn't even born yet.
But we also know that the characters can output more than just their max power into attacks and so on with ki control. How much? I would say that since it's stretched in time and not released at once that the power is around *3. And of course I base that on absolutely nothing, in my old powerlevel lists it was the max ki a character can spent before dying (so the strength of suicide attacks basically).
So: 1 Goku, 3 Vegetas, 3 Gohans, 3 Gotens and 3 Trunkses. But how much is that? Well, we saw Vegeta slightly surpassing Super Saiyan 3 Goku while Gohan didn't train and is probably on a level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.
Lets assume that the power Vegeta has over Goku (not Vegeta's power) + power of Goten, Trunks and Gohan are roughly equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
So now we have 1 Goku + 3 Vegetas strong as Goku, + 3 combined Gokus = 7 Gokus
Goku powered with 6 other Gokus can unlock a Super Saiyan God , so let say it has a multiplier of *10 becuse it's a nice, round number not far from *10.
That we managed to estimate more or less.
7. Saiyan beyond God / God-like Saiyan
That's a transformation I hoped to avoid with manga canon but it appears in the Ressurection F manga and actually was very helpful in a few key moments so I decided to include it.
This transformation is basically a base state empowered by the godly ki or by using some of the Super Saiyan God power without changing into that form. Personally I care about numbers more than if the ki in this state is godly or not.
So what's the multiplier? I'd say 50 times weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, as trying to go Super Saiyan in this form makes it a Super Saiyan Blue.
The multiplier of this form is exactly the same as Super Saiyan 3. It works pretty nicely like that so I'll leave it like this. It also has a nice ring to it with "well a saiyan with weakest god powers can match the highest transformation a mortal saiyan can get, not counting maxed super saiyan 2"
Why was that transformation helpful and when it occurs? Several cases, some I had a huge problem with when not including this transformation.
- Ressurection F fight between "base" Goku and final form Frieza. Frieza was absurdly powerful compared to Super Saiyan Gohan and a regular base Goku wouldn't win with a Super Saiyan Gohan, therefore the godly form was needed.
- Zamasu Saga. "Base" Vegito managed to blow up Fused Zamasu's arm with a huge blast. The numbers didn't work with my made up fusion multipliers there without this form
- During tournament of power we see tired "base" Goku and Vegeta throwing their last resort attacks on Jiren. Since it was similar to when they trained against Whis I do believe it's not their base form but something much, much stronger, especially that a tired Jiren is actually pushed back by this.
- During the Broly movie. We see Super Saiyan Vegeta being overpowered by Broly's Rage mode while Goku starts the fight in a "base" form and actually managing to land some solid hits. It would be a great insult to Vegeta if Goku was in a many times weaker state but did much better so to help Vegeta regain some pride lets say Goku was in this state back then.
8. Super Saiyan beyond God / God-like Super Saiyan
Ok, first of all I'm sorry for including this form. This is a Super Saiyan form that got infused with Super Saiyan God ki, but not to the point where it can become a Super Saiyan Blue, which is an evolution of this state. From what we saw in an anime and the first Super movie it's actually weaker than Super Saiyan God, as Goku in order to block Beerus big blast attack managed to transform to Super Saiyan God for a second.
It really made it to the list for 2 reasons and both are movies, that are borderline manga canon in general:
- To make the movie Battle of the Gods more canon, even if manga didn't show up Goku ever losing the Super Saiyan God transformation, just getting weaker in it.
- To help Vegeta's pride as with the above transformation- Goku is shown fighting Broly with his Super Saiyan transformation, that was doing a way better job than Vegeta's Super Saiyan.Super Saiyan God before that.
This form is 5 times stronger than Saiyan Beyond God, so 2 times weaker than Super Saiyan God.
9. Super Saiyan Blue
This form is rather easy to estimate. During a fight between Vegeta and Hit it is stated that due to transforming twice within minutes Vegeta lost a huge majority of his power and that he's around 10% of his max power. We also learn that he would be stronger by going to Super Saiyan God instead.
Which allows for an easy estimate that a regular Super Saiyan Blue is 5 times stronger than Super Saiyan God.
But what else do we know about this form?
It drains ki quckly, probably quicker than Ascended Super Saiyan, but still less than Frieza's not trained Golden Frieza, which allowed Goku and Vegeta to win with the stronger tyrant.
Despite Goku and Vegeta training for 3 years with that form they didn't find a way to lower the energy drain. Even after eating a senzu bean Vegeta loses energy very fast when fighting Goku Black.
We also know that the initial transformation explodes with energy, but the energy of the Super Saiyan Blue quickly lowers and sets at a more stable level.
This form can be mastered though, and keep all that initial power while eliminating the energy drain by trapping the plasmic aura inside the body. I give it a *2 multiplier
so a Mastered Super Saiyan Blue = *2 Super Saiyan Blue.
And no energy drain to boot, sweet.
Mastered Super Saiyan Blue can be power stressed as well, but it was shown to be extremely harsh on the body. I don't think Goku was more than 50% stronger by doing that.
10. Super Saiyan Rose
It was a very hard transformation to tackle. Apparently the transformation isn't much different from Super Saiyan Blue, but the way it's obtain definitely is + it looks like it doesn't strain the body as much as Super Saiyan Blue.
In order to make sense of it's power level I'll share some quotes from Dragon Ball Wiki
In the Dragon Ball Super manga, it is shown that when a Super Saiyan's power surpasses the power of the Super Saiyan God form, it will naturally progress into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
It is unknown if Goku Black can still become an ordinary Super Saiyan, and what level of power it would possess, as when Goku's god-enhanced Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Blue, it also caused him to re-acquire his non-god-enhanced Super Saiyan form.
What did we already state and know about Goku Black:
- He's stronger than not mastered Super Saiyan 2 in his base state.
- His Super Saiyan at first is a bit weaker than mastered Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.
- He gets wrecked by Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, but after one zenkai he can put a fight against Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.
- Then he transforms into Super Saiyan Rose after another zenkai and absolutely dominates Vegeta.
- Later he gets dominated by Super Saiyan God-to-Blue Vegeta.
If we treat his Super Saiyan like a regular Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rose like a regular Super Saiyan Blue then Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Goku Black.
Which would mean that Vegeta's God-to-Blue switching also makes the user 400 times stronger. And Perfected Super Saiyan Blue is 600+ times stronger than a regular Super Saiyan Blue.
That would be insane.
The above statements from Dragon Ball Wiki help with figuring it out.
Super Saiyan Goku Black is so powerful that his power surpasses Super Saiyan God Goku/Vegeta, which with added Zamasu's godly powers make it work like a Super Saiyan God.
So in Goku Black's case we treat his Super Saiyan transformation as a Super Saiyan God.
Therefore Super Saiyan Rose mimicks puting a Super Saiyan Blue on top of Super Saiyan God, so Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is 5 times stronger than Super Saiyan Goku Black.
EDIT: New theory
Since now I treat Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Beyond God as "official" transformations with their own numbers now I see it like this:
Goku Black we see for the first time isn't yet fully compatible with his own body. He's in a Saiyan Beyond God state (which allows him to beat Trunks without transforming and can fight SSj 2 Vegeta for a second without going Super Saiyan) but it's weaker than what it's supposed to be.
When Goku Black goes Super Saiyan we see him powering up during the battle with Vegeta a couple of times (his aura exploding with power) with Trunks being all concerned that Goku Black is stronger than before, while still being outclassed by Vegeta.
So Goku Black is fighting with Super Saiyan Beyond God state, with his power rapidly adapting during the battle to the level his ki is supposed to be in this form. After first zenkai after healing the power is surpassing what a Super Saiyan Beyond God is supposed to be and gets on a level of Super Saiyan God. Since we know that Super Saiyan God can match Super Saiyan Blue at least in speed, Goku Black can put up a fight against rapidly weakening Vegeta.
After a second zenkai his power in his Super Saiyan Beyond God surpasses even Super Saiyan God, allowing him to unlock Super Saiyan Rose.
Some numbers to show how I see it (all already in milions so add 6 zeroes behind them):
Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 8,400 (21 base Goku's power, 25%)
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 9,000
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 42,000
Full Power Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 45,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 1,800,000
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 42,000 -> 168,000 (goes to full power of this form)
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 450,000 (after zenkai unlocked the power of SSG)
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 2,250,000 (after a second zenkai his power surpassed that of SSG, unlocking the Rose transformation)
11. Super Saiyan God-to-Blue
Like Kaioken it's more of a technique than transformation.
It was stated and hinted a few times that Super Saiyan God is faster/as fast as a regular Super Saiyan Blue and doesn't share it's stamina issues. Therefore in order to beat Goku Black, Vegeta through intense training developed a technique where he stays in Super Saiyan God and powers up to Blue for a very brief periods in order to conserve stamina and utilize more of that initial Super Saiyan Blue power.
This technique is better than a regular Super Saiyan Blue, but weaker than Perfected Super Saiyan Blue.
The multiplier is in between- Super Saiyan Blue * 1,5.
12. Super Saiyan Blue Evolved
That's an upgrade over Mastered Super Saiyan Blue, reached by Vegeta when he was yet again behind Goku when it comes to power.
It's definitely at least two times stronger than a Mastered Super Saiyan Blue, since we see Vegeta give Jiren a good fight, doing way more than Goku and Hit at the same time previously.
Since this form wasn't used much or talked about, for now I give it *2,5 multiplier over a Mastered Super Saiyan Blue.
I think it might be similar in power to Ultra Instinct Sign, since Jiren commented that Vegeta with this form was stronger than anyone else aside of Goku's state. Which might suggest Vegeta at that point is stronger than power stressed Kale' initial power.
13. Ultra Instinct Sign
For now I will avoid talking about Ultra Instinct and Jiren's max power so there's gonna be a hole in the power level list. Jiren is definitely stronger than a Super Saiyan Broly, but I would say weaker than Legendary Super Saiyan Broly since Goku comments that Broly could be stronger than Beerus without mentioning Jiren, so I have a place where I can put Jiren's power when it's needed. Broly will be much easier to estimate than Jiren.
So treat this post as work in progress. Thank You for reading, see You soon.
Since it's a bit lengthy I will post the multipliers here and talk about them afterwards:
Super Saiyan: Base *50
Ascended Super Saiyan: Base *80
Ultra Super Saiyan: Base * 110
Legendary Super Saiyan: Base *120
Super Saiyan 2: Super Saiyan *2 , up to Super Saiyan *10 with mastery.
Super Saiyan 3 : Super Saiyan 2 *4
Super Saiyan God : Super Saiyan 3 * 10
Saiyan Beyond God: Base * 400 so the same as Super Saiyan 3
Super Saiyan Beyond God: Saiyan Beyond God * 5 so a half of Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue: Super Saiyan God *5
Super Saiyan God-to-Blue: Super Saiyan Blue * 1,5
Mastered Super Saiyan Blue: Super Saiyan Blue *2
Evolved Super Saiyan Blue: Mastered Super Saiyan Blue *2,5
Ultra Instinct: yet to be estimated.
1. Kaioken. While more technique than a transformation it multiplies user's base power and the strongest we see is kaioken *20 that Goku uses against Frieza on Namek. Because this transformation can damage the user's body and Super Saiyan being much stronger it's soon pretty much forgotten.
One important note is that I believe Tien uses the principle of this technique in order to make Neo Tri Beam multiple times much stronger than the original Tri Beam and much safer to the user too.
I understand Kaioken as controlling and rising ki in every cell/muscle of your body, which is why it's so hard to master and the humans didn't bother to learn it (of course we know that the real answer is Toriyama didn't care about them enough in order to give them the technique).
Therefore I can see Tien using the principle of Kaioken only on his hands, since Tri Beam also focuses all of user's energy in his hands. That's why Neo Tri Beam was able to push and give minor injuries to Semi-Perfect Cell despite Tien being over a hundred times weaker- the technique's multiplier is *100. And it's not a number I made up, it's actually written on a Dragon Ball Wiki and I liked it, it made sense for me.
2. Super Saiyan. I'm not going to write much here, the multiplier is *50 as originally stated.
I do however need to cheat in 2 cases and lower the multiplier to *5.
- Fusions. Both potara and fusion dance make an ultimate warrior, often shown in base form as extremely powerful.
We see Base Gotenks impress Piccolo and attack Super Buu in that state.
We see Vegito blow up a huge chunk of Fusion Zamasu in his "base" form (more about it later)
We see Gogeta fly around Broly's attacks in his "base" form
If we put *50 modifier on that we would have some serious powerscaling issues. I will write about it more in a post about fusions but basically we see Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan being weaker than Goku in Dragon Ball Super.
If we blew up the multipliers and said that Super Saiyan Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku then Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be several times stronger than Goku. I don't see Goku getting ~4 times stronger in 4 years, sorry.
Fusions also weren't made with super saiyans in mind, I would say that super saiyan puts a lot of strain of the body already, therefore the multiplier is *5 in that case..
- Goku Black. I started this project by trying to cover Zamasu saga first, since it's the most inconsistent with power levels and powerscaling. I might discuss this in another post but Base Goku Black can defeat Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (not full power) who at full power can match Super Saiyan 3 Goku, while full power Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta can defeat a Super Saiyan Goku Black.
In easier (?) to read form:
Do You see the problem here? If we keep *50 multiplier for Goku Black then it means that full power Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta is multiple times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku! It wouldn't make much sense to me. Sure, it is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 but I would say maybe 25% stronger.
*5 multiplier fits to my numbers so I will keep it. And during writing this post I managed to find a way to explain it.
Goku Black's body isn't in sync when Zamasu's Saga starts. When he swapped bodies with Goku he couldn't even go Super Saiyan, but through zenkai the body started accepting the new host and unlock Goku's powers.
At the start of the saga his Super Saiyan isn't perfected yet. It is after Zamasu heals Goku Black, that's why he gets absolutely destroyed by Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at first but later can hold his own- at first his Super Saiyan multiplier is *5, and after zenkai it's *50.
EDIT: I have a new theory to tackle the problem of Goku Black, more below in a discussion about Super Saiyan Rose.
3. Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan , known as Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3
There are power ups over the base Super Saiyan made by Power Stressing the transformation, increasing muscle mass and by boosting the stamina drain. In my understanding you can't boost the power of Ascended Super Saiyan much more without going to Ultra Super Saiyan, this state just doesn't allow for a more flexible ki control.
There are no 'official' multipliers for these forms, I saw *75 and *90 over the base form once but I do believe that Ultra Super Saiyan is actually stronger than Super Saiyan 2 in terms of the raw power so I won't agree with them.
For me it's:
Base *80 for the Ascended Super Saiyan
Base *110 for the Ultra Super Saiyan
Worth noting that Ascended Super Saiyan is in general an improvement over a standard Super Saiyan, having increased speed and power while having a manageable stamina drain, while Ultra Super Saiyan is slower than a regular Super Saiyan, has a massive stamina drain and maybe even requires recharging to stay in the form.
What about Mastered Super Saiyan? It still has *50 multiplier, but mastering the transformation allows for just a more productive and faster training since the transformation doesn't strain the body at all, allows for powering up during the battle just as Base form does. It is huge and shows that both Goku and Gohan who were weaker than Vegeta before they all trained in the Room of Spirit and Time got much stronger than Vegeta did in 2 years in the chamber without staying a one whole year there.
4. Legendary Super Saiyan
It's a similar form to previous two but the power up multiplier is Base *120. We only see this form once in the manga, second time is in Broly's movie so it's hard to say something certain about it.
It still drains the stamina quickly, as seen with Kale losing a lot of power before fusing but I don't think it's as bad as with Ultra Super Saiyan. The speed is also probably increased, as with Ascended Super Saiyan.
I believe Kale subconsciously entered this state to stop her powerlevel from growing too much for her to control.
Broly in the movie entered this state because he couldn't overpower Super Saiyan Gogeta. Before Gogeta charged his kamehameha we see Broly come back to his senses out of fear in this form, so it might be a state one can control. Maybe the stamina draining and potential ki lowering made him calmer too.
5. Super Saiyan 2
The multiplier for this form is simple, it's *2 the power of a Super Saiyan.
However in the Super manga we see this form outperform a Super Saiyan 3. Angered Vegeta powers up his Super Saiyan 2 so much that the characters state he surpassed Goku and I do believe in that moment Vegeta was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, landing a few hits at supressed Beerus.
Later we see Future Trunks mastery of this form that allows him to match Super Saiyan 3 Goku despite being much weaker than Goku in his base form. Vegeta sees this and takes Trunks to train.
I don't have any reason to think those feats aren't the same thing and soon Vegeta trashes Super Saiyan Goku Black with this form as well. Let's call it a mastered super saiyan 2, with an additional modifier of *5, so 25% stronger than Super Saiyan 3. Which I think is fair.
6. Super Saiyan 3
I'll be using the *4 multiplier with that form, even though I personally think that the gap between super saiyan 2 is too big.
Super Saiyan 3 was a huge problem when trying to sort out Gotenks power level and I had to cheat in an interesting way in order to fit.
Main problem was Vegito fighting Super Buu - trying to set the modifiers for fusions so they would work in both DBZ and DBS was the second hardest thing after Goku Black to figure out. Even if Goten and Trunks are much weaker than Goku and Vegeta (their Super Saiyan can surprise android 18) then with all the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers they are actually surpassing Super Saiyan Vegeto. If Vegeto was using a Super Saiyan 2 then there wouldn't be a problem.
But more about that in the fusions discussion.
7. Super Saiyan God
I wanted to talk about this state a bit later but since this is the point where we need to start making up our own numbers it's good to start with first new transformation introduced in Dragon Ball Super.
We need to estimate how strong this form is- based on feats we know nothing aside of "it's many times stronger than Super Saiyan 3"
If we observe how Goku is transforming to Super Saiyan 3 in the Buu Saga and Goku Black unlocking more transformations it's a simple rule of "add more power to unlock more power".
Transformations are like barriers one needs to break with a huge amount of ki to get them. And since Super Saiyan God requires a ritual where good hearted saiyans focus their energy in one saiyan- lets treat it that way.
So we know that the power of the Super Saiyan God is similar to a power of Goku + the power of Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten. I don't count Pan because she isn't even born yet.
But we also know that the characters can output more than just their max power into attacks and so on with ki control. How much? I would say that since it's stretched in time and not released at once that the power is around *3. And of course I base that on absolutely nothing, in my old powerlevel lists it was the max ki a character can spent before dying (so the strength of suicide attacks basically).
So: 1 Goku, 3 Vegetas, 3 Gohans, 3 Gotens and 3 Trunkses. But how much is that? Well, we saw Vegeta slightly surpassing Super Saiyan 3 Goku while Gohan didn't train and is probably on a level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.
Lets assume that the power Vegeta has over Goku (not Vegeta's power) + power of Goten, Trunks and Gohan are roughly equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
So now we have 1 Goku + 3 Vegetas strong as Goku, + 3 combined Gokus = 7 Gokus
Goku powered with 6 other Gokus can unlock a Super Saiyan God , so let say it has a multiplier of *10 becuse it's a nice, round number not far from *10.
That we managed to estimate more or less.
7. Saiyan beyond God / God-like Saiyan
That's a transformation I hoped to avoid with manga canon but it appears in the Ressurection F manga and actually was very helpful in a few key moments so I decided to include it.
This transformation is basically a base state empowered by the godly ki or by using some of the Super Saiyan God power without changing into that form. Personally I care about numbers more than if the ki in this state is godly or not.
So what's the multiplier? I'd say 50 times weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, as trying to go Super Saiyan in this form makes it a Super Saiyan Blue.
The multiplier of this form is exactly the same as Super Saiyan 3. It works pretty nicely like that so I'll leave it like this. It also has a nice ring to it with "well a saiyan with weakest god powers can match the highest transformation a mortal saiyan can get, not counting maxed super saiyan 2"
Why was that transformation helpful and when it occurs? Several cases, some I had a huge problem with when not including this transformation.
- Ressurection F fight between "base" Goku and final form Frieza. Frieza was absurdly powerful compared to Super Saiyan Gohan and a regular base Goku wouldn't win with a Super Saiyan Gohan, therefore the godly form was needed.
- Zamasu Saga. "Base" Vegito managed to blow up Fused Zamasu's arm with a huge blast. The numbers didn't work with my made up fusion multipliers there without this form
- During tournament of power we see tired "base" Goku and Vegeta throwing their last resort attacks on Jiren. Since it was similar to when they trained against Whis I do believe it's not their base form but something much, much stronger, especially that a tired Jiren is actually pushed back by this.
- During the Broly movie. We see Super Saiyan Vegeta being overpowered by Broly's Rage mode while Goku starts the fight in a "base" form and actually managing to land some solid hits. It would be a great insult to Vegeta if Goku was in a many times weaker state but did much better so to help Vegeta regain some pride lets say Goku was in this state back then.
8. Super Saiyan beyond God / God-like Super Saiyan
Ok, first of all I'm sorry for including this form. This is a Super Saiyan form that got infused with Super Saiyan God ki, but not to the point where it can become a Super Saiyan Blue, which is an evolution of this state. From what we saw in an anime and the first Super movie it's actually weaker than Super Saiyan God, as Goku in order to block Beerus big blast attack managed to transform to Super Saiyan God for a second.
It really made it to the list for 2 reasons and both are movies, that are borderline manga canon in general:
- To make the movie Battle of the Gods more canon, even if manga didn't show up Goku ever losing the Super Saiyan God transformation, just getting weaker in it.
- To help Vegeta's pride as with the above transformation- Goku is shown fighting Broly with his Super Saiyan transformation, that was doing a way better job than Vegeta's Super Saiyan.Super Saiyan God before that.
This form is 5 times stronger than Saiyan Beyond God, so 2 times weaker than Super Saiyan God.
9. Super Saiyan Blue
This form is rather easy to estimate. During a fight between Vegeta and Hit it is stated that due to transforming twice within minutes Vegeta lost a huge majority of his power and that he's around 10% of his max power. We also learn that he would be stronger by going to Super Saiyan God instead.
Which allows for an easy estimate that a regular Super Saiyan Blue is 5 times stronger than Super Saiyan God.
But what else do we know about this form?
It drains ki quckly, probably quicker than Ascended Super Saiyan, but still less than Frieza's not trained Golden Frieza, which allowed Goku and Vegeta to win with the stronger tyrant.
Despite Goku and Vegeta training for 3 years with that form they didn't find a way to lower the energy drain. Even after eating a senzu bean Vegeta loses energy very fast when fighting Goku Black.
We also know that the initial transformation explodes with energy, but the energy of the Super Saiyan Blue quickly lowers and sets at a more stable level.
This form can be mastered though, and keep all that initial power while eliminating the energy drain by trapping the plasmic aura inside the body. I give it a *2 multiplier
so a Mastered Super Saiyan Blue = *2 Super Saiyan Blue.
And no energy drain to boot, sweet.
Mastered Super Saiyan Blue can be power stressed as well, but it was shown to be extremely harsh on the body. I don't think Goku was more than 50% stronger by doing that.
10. Super Saiyan Rose
It was a very hard transformation to tackle. Apparently the transformation isn't much different from Super Saiyan Blue, but the way it's obtain definitely is + it looks like it doesn't strain the body as much as Super Saiyan Blue.
In order to make sense of it's power level I'll share some quotes from Dragon Ball Wiki
In the Dragon Ball Super manga, it is shown that when a Super Saiyan's power surpasses the power of the Super Saiyan God form, it will naturally progress into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
It is unknown if Goku Black can still become an ordinary Super Saiyan, and what level of power it would possess, as when Goku's god-enhanced Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Blue, it also caused him to re-acquire his non-god-enhanced Super Saiyan form.
What did we already state and know about Goku Black:
- He's stronger than not mastered Super Saiyan 2 in his base state.
- His Super Saiyan at first is a bit weaker than mastered Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.
- He gets wrecked by Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, but after one zenkai he can put a fight against Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.
- Then he transforms into Super Saiyan Rose after another zenkai and absolutely dominates Vegeta.
- Later he gets dominated by Super Saiyan God-to-Blue Vegeta.
If we treat his Super Saiyan like a regular Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rose like a regular Super Saiyan Blue then Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Goku Black.
Which would mean that Vegeta's God-to-Blue switching also makes the user 400 times stronger. And Perfected Super Saiyan Blue is 600+ times stronger than a regular Super Saiyan Blue.
That would be insane.
The above statements from Dragon Ball Wiki help with figuring it out.
Super Saiyan Goku Black is so powerful that his power surpasses Super Saiyan God Goku/Vegeta, which with added Zamasu's godly powers make it work like a Super Saiyan God.
So in Goku Black's case we treat his Super Saiyan transformation as a Super Saiyan God.
Therefore Super Saiyan Rose mimicks puting a Super Saiyan Blue on top of Super Saiyan God, so Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is 5 times stronger than Super Saiyan Goku Black.
EDIT: New theory
Since now I treat Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Beyond God as "official" transformations with their own numbers now I see it like this:
Goku Black we see for the first time isn't yet fully compatible with his own body. He's in a Saiyan Beyond God state (which allows him to beat Trunks without transforming and can fight SSj 2 Vegeta for a second without going Super Saiyan) but it's weaker than what it's supposed to be.
When Goku Black goes Super Saiyan we see him powering up during the battle with Vegeta a couple of times (his aura exploding with power) with Trunks being all concerned that Goku Black is stronger than before, while still being outclassed by Vegeta.
So Goku Black is fighting with Super Saiyan Beyond God state, with his power rapidly adapting during the battle to the level his ki is supposed to be in this form. After first zenkai after healing the power is surpassing what a Super Saiyan Beyond God is supposed to be and gets on a level of Super Saiyan God. Since we know that Super Saiyan God can match Super Saiyan Blue at least in speed, Goku Black can put up a fight against rapidly weakening Vegeta.
After a second zenkai his power in his Super Saiyan Beyond God surpasses even Super Saiyan God, allowing him to unlock Super Saiyan Rose.
Some numbers to show how I see it (all already in milions so add 6 zeroes behind them):
Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 8,400 (21 base Goku's power, 25%)
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 9,000
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 42,000
Full Power Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 45,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 1,800,000
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 42,000 -> 168,000 (goes to full power of this form)
Super Saiyan Beyond God Goku Black: 450,000 (after zenkai unlocked the power of SSG)
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 2,250,000 (after a second zenkai his power surpassed that of SSG, unlocking the Rose transformation)
11. Super Saiyan God-to-Blue
Like Kaioken it's more of a technique than transformation.
It was stated and hinted a few times that Super Saiyan God is faster/as fast as a regular Super Saiyan Blue and doesn't share it's stamina issues. Therefore in order to beat Goku Black, Vegeta through intense training developed a technique where he stays in Super Saiyan God and powers up to Blue for a very brief periods in order to conserve stamina and utilize more of that initial Super Saiyan Blue power.
This technique is better than a regular Super Saiyan Blue, but weaker than Perfected Super Saiyan Blue.
The multiplier is in between- Super Saiyan Blue * 1,5.
12. Super Saiyan Blue Evolved
That's an upgrade over Mastered Super Saiyan Blue, reached by Vegeta when he was yet again behind Goku when it comes to power.
It's definitely at least two times stronger than a Mastered Super Saiyan Blue, since we see Vegeta give Jiren a good fight, doing way more than Goku and Hit at the same time previously.
Since this form wasn't used much or talked about, for now I give it *2,5 multiplier over a Mastered Super Saiyan Blue.
I think it might be similar in power to Ultra Instinct Sign, since Jiren commented that Vegeta with this form was stronger than anyone else aside of Goku's state. Which might suggest Vegeta at that point is stronger than power stressed Kale' initial power.
13. Ultra Instinct Sign
For now I will avoid talking about Ultra Instinct and Jiren's max power so there's gonna be a hole in the power level list. Jiren is definitely stronger than a Super Saiyan Broly, but I would say weaker than Legendary Super Saiyan Broly since Goku comments that Broly could be stronger than Beerus without mentioning Jiren, so I have a place where I can put Jiren's power when it's needed. Broly will be much easier to estimate than Jiren.
So treat this post as work in progress. Thank You for reading, see You soon.
Thursday, May 7, 2020
Introduction and foreword
Hi!
I'm Rhodi, also known online as miqv44 here and there. But who I am is not important, what I do also isn't but You're here for a reason so lets get down to it:
I'm a guy that is trying to make sense of Dragon Ball powerlevels.
Yes, it's stupid, but it's a hobby of mine for the past 12 years and I've been known on Polish websites covering Dragon Ball years ago. My original power level list wasn't accurate when we considered canon multipliers for a few reasons, the main one being the Super Saiyan multiplier.
I never considered *50 to be correct- too many times we see saiyans in their base forms fighting much stronger opponents, one example is base Vegeta trying to stop Kid Buu and getting punched. He's about 400 times weaker than Kid Buu in his base form so I would expect him to explode from one punch like that.
But that's an old story, people online are obsessed with canon and accurate power levels. While I cannot say these are canon I'll be doing my best to present to You as accurate power levels as possible in the upcoming posts.
I'll be using the official (?) multipliers and aside of some posts where I discuss certain subjects how these multipliers should look these will be fixed. So Super Saiyan is always *50 base power, Super Saiyan 2 is always *2 Super Saiyan power etc.
My plan is to first post a few discussion posts before going for the raw powerlevels, so that it's not one big mess where there's a ton of talking about powerlevels along with powerlevels. I also don't know if you can pin a post to the top of the page on blogger, so I'm trying to leave the top of the blog for the list.
3 important informations left to say:
1. I don't profit from this. This is a hobby and something that I do to sleep well at night. I don't plan to profit from this in any shape or form. If the blog gets 10 views- that doesn't bother me. If the blog gets 100,000 views - cool, I'm glad that apparently people enjoy it, I don't profit from views.
2. This will be MANGA CANON ONLY . The anime, as creators said in the interviews , was build with 'rule of cool' in mind. The creators didn't care about power levels and powerscaling and oh boy does it show, every dragon ball fan knows that Dragon Ball Super is extremely inconsistent in power levels.
That being said Akira Toriyama and other people responsible for the manga also don't give it enough thought, but manga fixes some of the problems shown in the anime.
Therefore for me manga is the canon here, although I'm aware that the movies are supposed to fit both manga and anime canon. Also there was an incomplete manga about ressurection of Frieza that covers the movie and I will treat it (and the movie) as manga canon too.
3. All questions and suggestions are welcome. It's an ever evolving project and I have no problem changing some things when I hear decent argumentation.
HOWEVER it's easy to point a finger and say that one piece of this puzzle doesn't fit correctly and should be changed. It's hard to change that piece and keep the puzzle intact without breaking everything.
I'm painfully aware that some of these numbers could be better but I'm trying to keep all the multipliers intact and sadly I need to cheat in some cases. Don't worry though, I'll do my best to explain every case.
When making suggestions please make sure Your suggestion doesn't fix one issue while creating others, I have no problem making this power level list a group project as long as everyone involved has fun.
I'd like to thank now one person that inspired me into making it - PlagueOfGripes. He kept making a very successful videos talking about Dragon Ball which reignited my passion for trying to make powerlevels work no matter how stupid it is.
Thank You all for reading and see You very soon.
I'm Rhodi, also known online as miqv44 here and there. But who I am is not important, what I do also isn't but You're here for a reason so lets get down to it:
I'm a guy that is trying to make sense of Dragon Ball powerlevels.
Yes, it's stupid, but it's a hobby of mine for the past 12 years and I've been known on Polish websites covering Dragon Ball years ago. My original power level list wasn't accurate when we considered canon multipliers for a few reasons, the main one being the Super Saiyan multiplier.
I never considered *50 to be correct- too many times we see saiyans in their base forms fighting much stronger opponents, one example is base Vegeta trying to stop Kid Buu and getting punched. He's about 400 times weaker than Kid Buu in his base form so I would expect him to explode from one punch like that.
But that's an old story, people online are obsessed with canon and accurate power levels. While I cannot say these are canon I'll be doing my best to present to You as accurate power levels as possible in the upcoming posts.
I'll be using the official (?) multipliers and aside of some posts where I discuss certain subjects how these multipliers should look these will be fixed. So Super Saiyan is always *50 base power, Super Saiyan 2 is always *2 Super Saiyan power etc.
My plan is to first post a few discussion posts before going for the raw powerlevels, so that it's not one big mess where there's a ton of talking about powerlevels along with powerlevels. I also don't know if you can pin a post to the top of the page on blogger, so I'm trying to leave the top of the blog for the list.
3 important informations left to say:
1. I don't profit from this. This is a hobby and something that I do to sleep well at night. I don't plan to profit from this in any shape or form. If the blog gets 10 views- that doesn't bother me. If the blog gets 100,000 views - cool, I'm glad that apparently people enjoy it, I don't profit from views.
2. This will be MANGA CANON ONLY . The anime, as creators said in the interviews , was build with 'rule of cool' in mind. The creators didn't care about power levels and powerscaling and oh boy does it show, every dragon ball fan knows that Dragon Ball Super is extremely inconsistent in power levels.
That being said Akira Toriyama and other people responsible for the manga also don't give it enough thought, but manga fixes some of the problems shown in the anime.
Therefore for me manga is the canon here, although I'm aware that the movies are supposed to fit both manga and anime canon. Also there was an incomplete manga about ressurection of Frieza that covers the movie and I will treat it (and the movie) as manga canon too.
3. All questions and suggestions are welcome. It's an ever evolving project and I have no problem changing some things when I hear decent argumentation.
HOWEVER it's easy to point a finger and say that one piece of this puzzle doesn't fit correctly and should be changed. It's hard to change that piece and keep the puzzle intact without breaking everything.
I'm painfully aware that some of these numbers could be better but I'm trying to keep all the multipliers intact and sadly I need to cheat in some cases. Don't worry though, I'll do my best to explain every case.
When making suggestions please make sure Your suggestion doesn't fix one issue while creating others, I have no problem making this power level list a group project as long as everyone involved has fun.
I'd like to thank now one person that inspired me into making it - PlagueOfGripes. He kept making a very successful videos talking about Dragon Ball which reignited my passion for trying to make powerlevels work no matter how stupid it is.
Thank You all for reading and see You very soon.
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Welcome to my first discussion post where I will introduce multipliers used in my power level list. Since it's a bit lengthy I will po... -
Fusions throw the power scalling out of the window. As soon as Gotenks shows up in the Buu Saga the whole power scalling goes wild. We hav...
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Hi! I'm Rhodi, also known online as miqv44 here and there. But who I am is not important, what I do also isn't but You're here...